Hello everyone On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:48 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:02 PM, Dan Glover wrote: > >> Hello everyone >> >> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:54 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 12:40 PM, Dan Glover wrote: >>> >>>> Hello everyone >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 3:14 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Marsha: >>> That's interesting but I have a very different interpretation of a static >>> pattern of value. >>> To start with a pattern is not just one occurrence. It is not an >>> independent event, >>> but, using chair as an example, related to your past history with the >>> chair-pattern; >>> it also is dependent on immediate sensory experience with the chair, and >>> possible >>> some future expectation for this chair. >> >> Dan: >> What chair are we talking about? Some mythical magical chair existing >> in the same realm as the tree falling in the forest with no one >> around? What chair? > > Marsha: > There is only static patterns of value and dynamic quality. For me 'chair' is > a name given to an accumulation of useful value (events) that tends to persist > and change in a predictable pattern.
Dan: I agree with your first statement but not your second. To define a static pattern of value requires precision. I see no precision here. > > >> Marsha: >> Besides this, it has an interdependence with >>> all other chair events both inside and outside the immediate culture and >>> with the >>> events across all cultures and all languages in all contexts through all >>> time. >>> In other words, a chair-pattern for me can best be represented by all that >>> is >>> opposite-from-non-chair. This would likewise hold for the justice-pattern, >>> wood-pattern, leg-pattern, or a zebra-pattern. A chair-pattern event could >>> not >>> encompass the entire pattern, but includes only those bits and pieces that >>> are >>> significant to the event. >> >> Dan: >> Well, to my mind, the MOQ states that a chair, like anything else, is >> composed of patterns of value. What do you mean by >> "chair-pattern-event"? I don't recognize that as a viable term within >> the MOQ. > > Marsha: > Quality is about experience, process or stream of events. I understand a > pattern of value to be an accumulation of useful value (events) that tends to > persist > and change in a predictable pattern. Dan: Quality isn't about experience. It is experience. I think I detect some redundancy in your second statement. A pattern of value is value. It does't accumulate value. It just is value. And static patterns persist over time. That is why they are needed, along with Dynamic Quality. > > >>> Marsha: >>> If the chair-pattern is represented only by the chair you are sitting on, >>> then how >>> do you recognize it as a chair? >> >> Dan: >> You asked "How are static patterns of value "defined and discrete"? >> >> I used my chair as an example of a static pattern of value and how it >> is defined and discrete. I didn't intend my chair to represent all >> chairs... it is an analogy. I recognize it as a chair as I am immersed >> in the 21st century Western culture and I know (as I assume you do >> too) what an office chair is. I answered you questions to the best of >> my ability within the framework of the MOQ, not from my own >> perspective. > > Marsha: > My understanding has you overlaying onto your experience the pattern > of a chair which allows you to state that you recognized, within your > 21 century Western culture, a chair. - You understanding of the MoQ is > YOUR perspective. Dan: I tend to disagree with you there. I read the posts of others (dmb, Andre, Horse, Arlo, Ian, Ant, Paul Turner, Scott Roberts, I could go on and on) and we all seem to agree on certain common denominators when it comes to the MOQ. Our understanding matches the MOQ as described by Robert Pirsig. > > >> On a side note, I get the feeling you are playing games here again but >> I will give you the benefit of the doubt. For now. > > > Marsha: > I presented my understanding of static patterns of value. While I find your > rejection interesting, it doesn't change my understanding. > > Thank you for the gracious "benefit of the doubt." I am NOT playing games, > but presenting how I understand static patterns of value, and that is not as > a discrete object, but as static patterns of value overlaid on to immediate > experience. Dan: Static patterns of value are not discrete objects! Object is merely a convenient shorthand for inorganic and biologcial patterns of value. > > >> Marsha: >> Certainly not by some Platonic ideal form, or a >>> master-definition found is some encyclopedia or dictionary. For me 'chair' >>> is >>> a name given to an accumulation of useful value (events) that tends to >>> persist >>> and change in a predictable pattern. >> >> Dan: >> >> I've searched my copy of LILA and found no mention of value events. I >> think this is misleading and confusing. > > I mean events as a series comprising a process/experience. > > > >>> .Marsha: >>> From my point-of-view, my interpretation makes more sense, so I guess we >>> have different concepts of static patterns of value. Dan: And why should I care? >> >> Dan: >> >> I guess we do have different concepts, but the question is, which is >> more in line with the MOQ? > > > Marsha: > That sounds like you are looking for an absolute. I am not. I think all > static > patterns of value, even those in the MoQ, are ever-changing and > interdependent, > and one might always be able to deepen one's understanding. Dan: I am not. There are absolutely no absolutes. Seriously, I am simply attempting to answer your questions to the best of my ability, within the framework of the MOQ. If that doesn't do it for you, then feel free to formulate your own opinions. As if you need permission, right? > > > Many thanks Dan. And thank you too, Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
