Hello John and Arlo, Arlo: If someone has to think the universe's expansion is orchestrated for their benefit, then I doubt any argument can convince them otherwise. And I think it is the people who have this need who struggle to turn Quality into a God.
John: I think there's an enlightened middle way. It's inclusive. Because as much as the universe was created for me, I was created for the universe. ... Free will is the basis of thought and rationality. It must be presumed or yer screwed. Free will can't be removed from existence. It plainly is. Mary: It's a matter of context. The MoQ is a paradigm shift. It resolves the old platypi humanity has struggled with in the SOM paradigm. Saying that there are no subjects and objects, no 'things', only patterns of value, morals, and quality is profoundly different at the most basic level. To make the leap, one has to come unhinged from all previous assumptions one has about the nature of reality and the nature of 'self'. Once you are willing to question the authenticity of "I" as an independent, judging entity, other things become clear. I think Pirsig would probably say free-will becomes a non-issue. One platypus down. Arlo: The MOQ does conceptualize (okay, I won't use the word "define") Quality differently than how most people you stop on the street and ask understand the term. But that's GOOD! It is this difference that, when articulated, has the potential to expand the vision of those unfamiliar with Pirsig's reconceptualizing of Quality. Mary: The MoQ doesn't say all quality is good for you, John. It says all that exists is Quality and that is good. If a thing is not of Quality, it does not exist because Quality or Values or Morals and not mass or energy is the ground-stuff of the Universe. The problem with Intellectual Level words, of course, is this whole concept of 'thing'. You must hold in your mind at all times the idea that there are no 'things', there are only expressions of Quality as static patterns of value. Your body, your ego, your "I", your house are not 'things', but sets of static patterns of value that can cross multiple levels. The power of the levels concept is that you can use it to understand why everything that exists is 'good' - from the perspective of some set of static pattern of values. In the vast reach of the Universe 99.99999...% of it is actually bad for you. You could not exist unaided on any other planet in even our own tiny solar system, for example, not to mention the vast reaches of empty space in between. Does that make the Universe bad or good? Was this Universe made specifically for you? If so, why is so much of it hostile? Pirsig could have chosen another word instead of Quality. He could have made up a new term and that would be ok, but I think he was trying to hammer home the point that what we commonly perceive as quality (the choice between a high or low quality item at the store, for instance) is sadly limited and has applicability only in a world view that says all is subjects and objects. If you think 'things' are made of matter and 'have' quality, then you must flip this on its head in a complete paradigm shift before you can get that there are no 'things', there are only static patterns of Value, Quality, or Morals. Pirsig says this is the fundamental ground stuff of the Universe. Further, he chooses to _equate_ Value, Quality, and Morals because in his metaphysics they are the same thing. The same thing. It is not possible to understand the MoQ until you accept his premise that all is Quality. If you come to it with any other world view as your premise, you will see platypi everywhere you look. You will be frustrated. Best, Mary Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
