Andre previously: For all I know your context and intention are changing as well, so paying attention to them seems futile.
Mark: Fair enough, welcome to the world of Quality. Andre: You seem to be equating Quality with a 'world' and everchanging. This is not Quality. Quality is ineffable, undefinable. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. Andre previously: Where does Mr. Pirsig suggest that sq is not real? Mark: I did answer your question. Andre: Well, pardon me Mark, I must have missed it somewhere. What book/paper and page number please? Where does he specifically say 'sq is not real'? Mark previously: I guess this is the static dynamic you are talking about. ?What exactly is that? ?I would say that the expressions of the dynamic are incorporated into the static; perhaps the word implication is appropriate here. Andre: I did answer you by verbalizing a few lines on page 119 of LILA to make my point. You obviously didn't bother to look (and it seems so important to you). Let's quote Pirsig: 'Static quality,...emerges in the wake of Dynamic Quality...Its values don't change by themselves. Unless they are altered by Dynamic Quality they say the same thing year after year. (LILA, p 119) And on page 117: 'Each culture has its own pattern of static good derived from fixed laws and the traditions and values that underlie them. This pattern of static good is the essential structure of the culture itself and defines it...But in addition there's a Dynamic good that is OUTSIDE of any culture, that cannot be contained by any system of precepts, but has to be continually rediscovered as a culture evolves.(my emphasis) I take this to mean that your 'expressions of the dynamic are incorporated into the static' is not supported by Pirsig's MOQ. I know that Dan suggested you read LILA. I suggest you read ZMM, especially the parts where Pirsig quotes Poincare and Einstein. Let me quote Phaedrus: 'Traditional scientific method'[which is a nice example of sq]...has always been at the very best, 20-20 hindsight. It's good for seeing where you've been. It's good for testing the truth of what you think you know, but it can't tell you where you ought to go, unless where you ought to go is a continuation of where you were going in the past'. Creativity, originality, inventiveness, intuition, imagination- 'unstuckness' in other words- are completely OUTSIDE its domain'(my emphasis, p 273) Mark: So, my question to you (once again)is: how real is sq to you? Andre: And I'll answer it once again: as real as I can lay my hat on some of them. And if this is not clear enough for you, here I'll cut and paste Pirsig (from p 123, LILA): '...complex pattern[s]of static values derived from primary experience...become the universe of distinguishable things'. Elementary static distinctions between such entities as 'before' and 'after' and between 'like' and 'unlike' grow into enormously complex patterns of knowledge that are transmitted from generation to generation as the mythos, the culture in which we live'. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
