Hi Dave On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 3:29 PM, David Thomas <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Mark > > The post this morning was just the start of a longer responses that I sent > by accident. I've been slowly working on a fuller response but it's not > complete. May never be...
[Mark] Don't worry about it, we can carry on. > [Dave] > My "faith" that Pirsig made this comment maybe misplaced but I recall seeing > it somewhere and "believe" he actually did say something very close to this > and he meant it ! There is of course some probability, however tiny, that I > am actually a "brain in a vat" but for sake of argument let say he did say > and mean it. You then go on: [Mark] My point was that you have to have faith that Pirsig has an answer. I believe he said what you stated. For any of us to follow a path, we make the assumption that it is a good path. That assumption is what I call faith. Nothing grand about it. Many have faith that what scientists tell them is true, or that things we read in history books really happened, no different. We have to start somewhere, and believe in something (I think). > [Dave] > Bingo. > Under the framework of the MoQ how does all of the above work? > Don't ask me I don't have a clue. I've been laboring under the illusion for > over 60 years that the world was sufficient understandable and amenable to > the normal workings of our mind/bodies for humans to live and flourish in > it. Over 30 years ago I found out that according to Pirsig that, at least in > the Western world, this is not so. Since then from time to time I have tried > to figure out what he was going on about. Several times I thought I had a > glimmer. His rhetoric is appealing but in the end everything is based on the > "authority" of his "mystic" experience. Faith and spirit not required, and > all logic,reason,rationality and the like are all trumped by the mystic > force of Dynamic Quality. Which at any given point in time is anything you, > me, or anybody else might like. Given what Hitler and Mao did with > pragmatism they must literally rolling over and green with envy at being too > late to work their magic with this one. [Mark] I appreciate your candor. I would agree that Pirsig presents a good picture. I, like you, find it interesting to follow in the path of what he proposes. Intellectually it is not that complicated, but actually living it is something else. I will drop the faith and spirit part since many find such rhetoric destructive, perhaps I do not have the baggage that some carry. My sense is that much of what Pirsig states is present in Zen. He provides a Western format for presenting it. That is, his examples are Western ones. Personally I don't know what Pirsig means by mystical. Sure, I have read many books on it, but the way it is presented by RMP is almost as an altered state of consciousness. This does not fly for me. I would contend that our current state of consciousness is mystical. How else can we explain the utter strangeness of our being here? As far as I am concerned we approach such "altered" mystical consciousness when we are fully involved in something so that there is no differentiation between us and the thing. This seems to happen most of the time, we just don't think about it. When was the last time you were transported somewhere outside of your body in a movie theater without constantly creating subjects and objects or realizing that you were in a theater. Sounds pretty mystical to me. > > How can the MoQ be considered anything other than "a dogmatic religion" in > the making.? It has almost all the necessary elements. "Sacred" text, small > but fanatic following, a central figure who presents himself as a modern day > Buddha abet as you suggest much grander and less humble than the storied one > of 2500 years ago. If you think hard I'm sure you can find some more. [Mark] Yes, indeed. If I present this type of reductionism to the group, I am met with harsh antagonism. Having said that, modes of belief do differ. Some things that I like about MoQ are: 1) There is nothing to pray to; 2) It is arrived at intellectually 3) It provides a dynamic perspective of the present 4) It allows one to see beyond the object ridden world 5) It explains things that seem to confuse many; 6) It does not require dogma or rituals... Well that's all I can think of off the top of my head. All of these things that I like are also present in Buddhism (except maybe the absence of ritual), and particularly in the Zen variety which is a mix of Buddhism and Taoism. I am not sure how grand Buddha was in his day. He was a priest, he had a following, but he was always dominated by the social and political events of the day. Buddha was not a prince like many people like to claim. His father was and elder of sorts with some money, but no king of any fiefdom. Many of these things seem to grow in the retelling and become legends. Who knows how this age will be seen 1000 years from now. I believe we can make a difference, but that may just be my illusionary sense of purpose. >> >> Let's get a little deeper than quotes from Pirsig shall we? > > Let's not and say we did. Whoops that won't work it would seem like I was > exercising my free will. Down DQ, down! [Mark] Fine by me, I'm having fun as it is. Cheers, Mark > >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
