[Mark] The story provides awareness and cannot be subjected to rules of truth. Making sense of them is also the duty of the reader.
[Arlo] Yikes. In other words, I can say anything I want and can't be criticized, for the onus of making sense of my words is on you, not me. And I don't even know what 'my words cannot be subject to rules of truth' means, but given that I don't know what the point of continued dialogue would even be... [Mark] Yes, I agree that language is social, and as such we can place all of it into the social level. [Arlo] I don't think this is correct. I think forms of language (semiosis) underscores both the social and intellectual levels. But whereas social "language" is descriptive and transactional, intellectual "language" is abstracting and hyper-relational. [Mark] We are all "trapped" in that sense (OMG!). I do not see how one can state that we are the Intellectual level. [Arlo] That all humans share inorganic and biological patterns in their composition is undeniable. But humans are also comprised of social and intellectual patterns of value. I never said "we are the intellectual level", I said we are comprised of ALL the levels; we have inorganic, biological, social and intellectual components. [Mark] OK, I can use your vernacular. Yes, of course it is SOM, that is the nature of discussion. [Arlo] Ah, well we are back in "language" or "intellect" being SOM, and right there is your mistake. I am afraid we can't progress any further, this is an impasse that leaves us speaking about two separate metaphysics. [Mark] So to make this consistent within MoQ framework, would you say that DQ informs SQ which instantly impacts DQ? [Arlo] Almost. DQ certainly imparts structure (SQ) which in turn alters possibility of further response to DQ. Patterns form as the result of value, or the experience of Quality, and these patterns have certain ranges of possibility in how they respond. An amoeba will never build an airplane, it lies completely outside its range of possibility, but as structures evolved, the range of agency for patterns increased, and eventually a pattern did appear that "building an airplane" was within its range of possibility. And that agency was made possible by the evolving structures supporting it. [Mark] No nothing like subjectivism. I am speaking of personal awareness. [Arlo] Subjectivism. [Mark] This also has nothing to do with S/O thinking. It is outside of that. [Arlo] Inside a MOQ, what type of pattern would you call "personal awareness", a biological pattern of value? [Mark] I can dismiss the road in the same way I can dismiss my thoughts. [Arlo] You can't claim you dismiss the road if you continue to follow it. All you are doing is the monkey hands over your eyes. La la la la, I don't need no road... you say as you carefully keep your car on the road. The road is a prison that we must dismiss, you say, as you drive from place to place obeying all signs, laws and following the roads. [Mark] I am using the divine in a pejorative way. Like saying I am Godly. Please continue to explain what we are that is more than the biological level, I can learn something. [Arlo] ? The very fact that we are discussing this using a shared, social language and manipulating abstract symbols with no corresponding I/B pattern, well if that's not proof that we are more than simply biological patterns, I don't know what else to say. [Mark] Well, it has been said often in this forum that the human agency does not exist in the measurable world. [Arlo] Things exist that have value. Now you are sliding into objectivism. [Mark] The levels are dynamic and not structures, but this is just nit-picking on my part. [Arlo] The levels are not Dynamic Quality, they are static quality, they are stable patterns of response TO Dynamic Quality. [Mark] The intellectual level existed long before humans so if you mean brought recently, then you are mistaken. [Arlo] You are obviously no longer talking about Pirsig's MOQ, but one of your own. Tell me, when do you think an "intellectual level" appeared? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
