> [Dan] > Illusions are a belief in that which doesn't exist.
>Horse: Wrong! I've got to disagree here as a belief in something that doesn't exist is a DE-lusion not an IL-lusion. So, to my mind, belief in God is a delusion, belief in fairies, life after death, etc. etc. are delusions. I also think Pirsig made this mistake (mistaking delusion for illusion) when he commented on the reality of the atomic bombs over Japan - but they were most certainly NOT delusions. Static patterns of value are ideas about reality and not the experience of reality - SQ is our attempt to order reality and order it in a way that makes sense - or agrees with the senses. But "I's", "O's", "S's" and "I's" no more "exist" than "S's" or "O's" - i.e. they are all deduced from Quality and are not primary. IPOV's are a better way of carving up Quality than S/O, but it is Quality that is Reality. So the idea that "Ideas are as real as rocks" is true as long as you remember that both Ideas and Rocks are both derived from Quality and are not primary. I think that a similar mistake was made in the past by a former member of this list - that MoQ=Reality and this lead to some disastrous conclusions and, I think it is caused, by analogy, to the quote that opened this post. The hold that S/O reality has over us is so strong that, try as we may, there is still a lingering, nagging doubt that S/O reality is real and we may be, with Quality, barking up the wrong tree. And I don't think there is anything wrong with admitting this either as this is the reality (in one form or another) which we have all been conditioned to believe and that the vast majority of those we know believe - to admit that we believe something as flaky as "Quality is Reality" is to almost admit to insanity. Look what happened to the guy that proposed this idea! We still have many bridges to cross before we are entirely free of S/O reality. Ron: I still maintain that the move to "escape" or to free ones thinking from S/O is a move in a unprofitable direction. Rather the expansion of those ideas as patterns of value makes the move toward a more open minded approach a move that a lover of widom would make, a move a Pragmatist would make. S/O are useful ideas but they have much more power concieved of as patterns of value and not actual reality. To say that Quality is reality is to admit to taking a more reflective approach to our lives than most ordinary folks do. Most folks dont even stop to reflect on S/O. Most push through life without much reflection at all, making their lives more "determined" than "free" in my opinion. The point you bring up however about delusion and illusion being taken as one in the same meaning is the one I have continually been trying to dispell especially in the case of those who to use the term as a dismissal of a concept. For to call the "self" an illusion when all concepts are illusion is rendering the term illusion meaningless. Now to concieve of the self as an "individual" (that which may not be divided) as seperate, whole and complete and to hold that conception as absolute and real in any and all situations is highly inaccurate and inhibits any further reflection and expansion in understanding especialy when that conception is culturally supported. However what we do endeavor to escape is the habitual behaviour of taking cultural opinion as absolute truth. ..... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
