Hi Arlo
Snipped a couple of things - hope you don't mind.
On 11/09/2011 13:51, ARLO J BENSINGER JR wrote:
[Horse]
Wrong! I've got to disagree here as a belief in something that doesn't exist is
a DE-lusion not an IL-lusion.
[Arlo]
I think you have this wrong, Horse. By your reasoning, "mathematics" is a
"DE-lusion", as it "doesn't exist". And I think the error here comes from the
very fact that the question of "exist/doesn't exist" is framed in an S/O
perspective.
Not so.
Mathematics exists and I think you are being slightly disingenuous about
this as you know I am not referring to the purely "physical" or S/O world.
1 + 1 =2 is correct. Do you disagree?
789 +380 / 276 = 42 is incorrect. Do you agree.
Or shall we talk about different bases and what do we really mean by really.
While the above may be illusory they are certainly not delusory as we
have a set of rules (either within an MoQ or SOM framework) that allows
us to agree on their truth
God exists. Fairies exist. There is life after death.
If you believe that any of these are other than delusion then we have no
common ground for discussion of the difference between illusion and
delusion.
Can you please tell me, if you disagree, what possible value comes from saying
that the bombs over Nagasaki and Hiroshima were "illusions"? Were they
illusions to the people who they killed? Are they illusions to the people still
dealing with long-reaching effects of radiation sickness?
<snip>
[Horse]
So thinking of SQ as illusion is, I believe, the correct way to view what is
statically real.
[Arlo]
Horse, I could not disagree with this any stronger. You want to tell the
victims at Nagasaki that the correct way for them to think about those bombs
are "as illusions"?
The correct way, I'd say instead, of thinking about SQ is that it is what has
very real empirical/experiential value.
I think the answer to the above is that to the people that experienced
the bombs in Japan they were real as both DQ and SQ were involved. As I
also said in my post Quality is Reality and as Quality is DQ and SQ so
Reality is DQ and SQ.
Neither you nor I experienced the unleashing of the atomic bomb so for
us there is no DQ (or experience or whatever you want to call it)
involved so all we have is a description of the events and to this
extent our knowledge is illusory and not real.
I think the value here is that we can separate out different kinds of
knowledge - direct first-hand knowledge and indirect second-hand
knowledge. Which do you feel is the more important or real in a
pragmatic sense. This is the MoQ difference between reality and illusion.
I'm not in any way trying to denigrate the experience of the Japanese at
Hiroshima or Nagasaki - far from it. But what was reality for them is
illusion for us. And the consequences of that reality are something we
shouldn't be allowed to forget.
Horse
--
"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines
or dates by which bills must be paid."
— Frank Zappa
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