Matt said to dmb:
... it's theoretically paramount for me to say that "what you want to say"
doesn't _have_ standards implied, but _are_ implied standards. Weird, but also
to my mind exactly parallel to the Pirsigian aphorism "we don't _have_ static
patterns, we _are_ static patterns." ... I'd say that "building a tailor-made
set of standards" _is_ "the actual empirical process.
dmb replied:
I don't see how that aphorism is relevant here. ...I think Pirsig is talking
about something else entirely, namely the compound, complex, non-Cartesian
nature of the self. ...Think about the relationship between "standards" and
"the actual empirical process" in terms of the relationship between static
quality and Dynamic Quality.
Matt said:
...I think the aphorism is relevant. Because I want to deny that we should
think about the relationship between the standards and the process on that
analogy between static patterns and DQ. ... I take it that by saying our
non-Cartesian self _is_ static patterns, one is saying that you do not _have_
standards, but _are_ standards. And if this is the case, what is "in process"
other than those static patterns/standards (one's "self")? Because if you
_have_ the patterns, then you can make an easy distinction between the process
and the standards. But how one makes the distinction doesn't look clear to me
if one subscribes to the aphorism.
dmb says:
Okay, even if I play along and pretend that the aphorism is relevant, there is
still a very big problem. You're only working with the static half of the
aphorism and this static side has been flattened or simplified to become simply
"static patterns", as opposed to a complex, migrating forest of patterns from
the various levels WITH the capacity to respond to DQ. DQ is the other half, of
course. If you're going to subscribe to Pirsig's pithy description of the self,
I think it's only fair to include the whole idea. Or, to say the same thing
more aggressively, I think its unfair to exclude half of the idea.
"Lila is composed of static patterns of value and these patterns are evolving
toward a Dynamic Quality. ...She's on her way somewhere like everybody else.
And you can't say where that somewhere is. ...'All life is a migration of
static patterns of quality toward Dynamic Quality." (Lila 139)
"...Phaedrus saw instantly that those seemingly trivial, unimportant, 'spur of
the moment' decisions that Mayr was talking about, the decisions that directed
the progress of evolution are, in fact, Dynamic Quality itself. Dynamic
Quality, the source of all things, the pre-intellectual cutting edge of
reality, always appears as 'spur of the moment'. Where else could it appear?".
(Lila 143)
"The increase in versatility is directed toward Dynamic Quality. The increase
in power to control hostile forces is directed toward static quality. Without
DQ the organism cannot grow. Without static quality the organism cannot last.
Both are needed." (Lila 147)
"But sometimes it's Dynamic, where your whole being senses that the static
situation is an enemy of life itself. That's what drives the really creative
people - the artists, composers, revolutionaries and the like - the feeling
that if they don't break out of this jailhouse somebody has built around them,
they're going to die. But they're not being contrary in a way that is just
decadent. They're way too energetic and aggressive to be decadent. They're
fighting for some kind of Dynamic freedom from the static patterns. But the
freedom they're fighting for is a kind of morality too. And it's a highly
important part of the overall moral process. ..Without its continual
refreshment static patterns would simply die of old age." (Lila 359)
"If you compare the levels of static patterns that compose a human being to the
ecology of a forest, and if you see the different patterns sometimes in
competition with each other, sometimes in symbiotic support of each other, but
always in a kind of tension that will shift one way or the other, depending on
evolving circumstances, then you can also see that evolution doesn't take place
only within societies, it takes place within individuals too. It's possible to
see Lila as something much greater than a customary sociological or
anthropological description would have her be. Lila then becomes a complex
ecology of patterns moving toward Dynamic Quality. Lila individually, herself,
is in an evolutionary battle against the static patterns of her own life."
(Lila 360)
dmb resumes:
As you can see, the MOQ's description of the self always includes this Dynamic
half of the equation and this description is often repeated and elaborated upon
and otherwise stars as a central feature throughout the book. (The quotes I've
selected span 221 pages and that's just a small sample!) This description of
the self certainly has some powerful implications for the way one ought to
conduct oneself, but the question of WHAT you ARE and the question of HOW you
should ACT are two different questions. I think you're giving half of the right
answer and that answer only makes sense in response to a separate question.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org/md/archives.html
