Hello everyone On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Andre Broersen <[email protected]> wrote: > Steve: > Nice job digging up those quotes and tying them together. > > dmb: > Thanks, Andre. Nice work, as usual. > > Andre: > Thank you Steve and dmb for your kind words in response to my last post. I > had hoped however that it would clarify some issues and perhaps (one could > only hope) that it would 'settle' the seemingly months long debate between > you two but...it seems not. Excuse my own intellectual shortcomings but I am > confused. > > At some stage in the debate, very early on, I had thrown in the idea that > Lila is after something: > "Biologically she's fine, socially she's pretty far down the scale, > intellectually [as an intellectual] she is nowhere. But Dynamically...Ah! > That's the one to watch. There is something ferociously Dynamic going on > with her. All that aggression, that tough talk, those strange bewildered > eyes." > > The way I interpret this (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that Lila, from > the biological point of view struggles to follow Dynamic Quality. She knows > she's 'over the hill'. She wants some sort of social recognition/security. > In this way she is acting morally, what I would term responsibly.
Dan: I think Lila represents the biological level. Lila will do anything to survive. She marries without love, has affairs with married men, prostitutes herself, and gives her body away for the price of a boat ride. She cares nothing about social recognition but she does seek biological security. All Lila cares about is keeping on being Lila. >Andre: > Place this in the context of the evolutionary value continuum, the struggle > between preference and probability (Lila's stay with Phaedrus but eventual > return to Rigel)"As such, it's apparent that this 'value' continuum (of > freedom) stretches between largely determined sub-atomic particles to > complete artistic freedom. This is important (metaphysically) as this > continuum facilitates, in a largely deterministic physical world, a notion > of moral responsibility and a considerable intellectual freedom for an > individual regarding aesthetic decisions."( Anthony's PhD, P 137). > > So what is a morally responsible action then? Dan: Doing what's right. >Andre: > Given Pirsig's moral framework as the static levels being the fundamental > grounding of moral organization, moral action (i.e. to act morally > responsible) is simply 'one where a higher level takes precedence over the > lower one (e.g. where the social takes precedence over the inorganic [ or in > Lila's case where her social patterns take over from her biological/organic > patterns] while an immoral action is one where a lower evolutionary level of > reality takes precedence over a higher one (e.g. where the biological level > takes precedence over the intellectual)." (ibid pp 93-4) Dan: I should think Dynamic Quality is the groundswell of morality in the MOQ. The four static levels are secondary quality patterns that provide moral stability. The MOQ is a framework providing us with a better way of organizing reality. >Andre: > Lila's patterns act morally because she wants to 'become part of' a higher > level of quality, the social level. But why did she blow it, in Pirsig's way > of thinking, given the surname he's given her? Dan: I don't think Lila acted morally at all. She killed her daughter. She got thrown off one boat so she grabbed onto the first guy who was interested in her and who looked like he might have two nickels to rub together. She colluded with her former pimp about killing Phaedrus and stealing his boat. Lila is not a nice person. >Andre: > I think this is so because the MOQ posits that the evolutionary process is a > process where all static patterns of value are moving towards Dynamic > Quality. "Lila, individually, herself, is in an evolutionary battle against > the static patterns of her own life"(LILA, p 367) Dan: Right. Throughout her life, she has destroyed every static pattern holding her in place. >Andre: > Can we still speak of determinism or free will here? > > Of course I argue No. Preferences and probabilities. Will Lila go all the > way towards DQ? No. That is why she blew it. "She wasn't ready to emerge > from her static patterns. She was still locked into them"( AHP tape 4). And > from within that level her patterns would be socially 'determined' or rather > 'dominated'. Dan: Agree. >Andre: > Was Lila's action somehow 'caused'. Are preferences 'caused'? Could she have > acted differently? Yes and no. Thing is that from Lila's point of view this > was probably the best (!) she could manage. Is her social path therefore > 'determined? Yes and no. That depends on what happens. The answer to this is > left open, but we can guess...as Phaedrus does. > > Lila was free to the extent that she followed DQ. She attemps to 'migrate' > from the biologically 'determined' level to higher up: the socially > 'determined' level. > > My confusion comes in when the debate still involves 'causation' and > 'determinism' because somehow Lila 'could have acted differently'. Dan: No, she couldn't have acted differently. >Andre: > Let me use a different example which may sound silly but I hope it gets my > confusion across. The would be sage following DQ. He is after > 'enlightenment. She is after DQ. Could s/he have acted differently? Dan: Lila's madness is a kind of Dynamic Quality, a breaking down of all patterns. But she isn't actively seeking like the would-be sage. She is simply realizing the truth... that there is no enlightenment... nothing to seek, nowhere to go, nothing to learn. Lila is falling into herself. If the sage did likewise, then the sage would stop searching, realizing it was there all along. Andre: >The > sage would say, to make my pursuit successful I HAVE TO weaken/reject my > links with the biological, social and intellectual static levels. I MUST > reject them because I WANT to follow DQ. Dan: The sage is pursuing that which exists all around yet the sage is too blind to see, too deaf to listen, too numb to feel. By closing off those links to the world, the sage is rejecting that very thing being sought. >Andre: > Is the life of the would be sage, the person who seeks DQ/ Enlightenment > predetermined by expressing this preference? Dan: If disappointment is predetermined, then yes. Andre: > Are these values caught in > spiral of causation/determinism? Dan: As long as there are preferences, there are desires. As long as there are desires, Dynamic Quality cannot emerge. Andre: I somehow get the feeling that this is > still playing in the debate. Dan: Perhaps. >Andre: > Am I wrong or is my confusion unfounded? Dan: It depends upon one's point of view. Thank you, Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
