Mark, Thats exactly why the ancient greeks considered the prime mover "immovable" because change or flux is a distinction made apon that which evades distinction. -Ron ..
From: 118 <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [MD] seeing Hmmm... You gotta love this Hagen guy. Buddhas do not see flux. The concept of dependent arising is a tool among many used to gain Buddhahood according to the doctrines supposedly stated by Gautama. Such a concept is dismissed once Buddhahood is reached. What Buddhas see is exactly what everyone else sees, they just think it is funny. Hagen seems to ascribe strange perceptions to Buddhas. Now, the "interrelationship of all" is close to Quality as I understand it. Such interrelationship is that which is in the present moment. Such a concept is embodied by Relationalism rather than Relativism (which seems to be Hagen's hang-up). There is no need to abide by the static concepts of flux and dependent arising as there are many other ways to get there. For example, if one were to meditate on the Munchhausen Trilemma for as long as it takes, an understanding of Buddhism can be reached without resorting to fluxes. Hagen seems to want to make it much more mystical and bizarre than it is. All one has to do is drop static quality. The more one wraps up the moment in static quality, the more hidden it becomes (although the bows sometimes look nice). Perhaps it is the persistence of memory that is at fault. http://drawing100.wikispaces.com/Paola+Duck "We are all Buddhas, we just think differently." Adobadas, 224 BC Thanks for the quote, it shows where Westerners get it wrong. All in my humble opinion, of course. Cheers, Mark On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:13 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > "While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism recently > out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and published by > Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows the similarities, > between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any other I have seen." > > Pirsig to McWatt, May 6th 1998. > > > --- > > > "When buddhas look at the world, they don't _see_ solidity. They don't > _see_ selves_. They see only flux. > > "This is not to say that the awakened no longer see forms like the rest of > us. They do. But they _see_ forms --- or, rather, "formness" --- illusory. > They _see_ that all things arise together. They _see_ that the apparent > existence of anything is dependent on all that it is not. And they _see_ > this dependence as nothing other than change and motion themselves. > > "The Buddha called this phenomena dependent arising. Dependent arising is > the formula, "When this arises, that becomes." When the days lengthen, > spring flowers bloom. When days shorten, autumn colors appear and leaves > fall from the trees. Spring glowers are inseparable from lengthening days; > autumn colors are inseparable from days of less and less light. Indeed, > spring flowers _are_ the longer days; fall color _are_ the shorter days. In > Reality, all phenomena work together as a seamless whole. > > "Dependent arising is not vague, mystical, remote, intellectual stuff. The > buddha-dharma is very practical and down-to-earth. Just pay very close > attention to your actual experience, and you'll _see_ it for yourself." > > > (Hagen, Steve, ‘Buddhism: Plain and Simple’, p.146) > > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
