Hey Ron, I don't think the analogy is necessarily of low quality. It is behaving as if the analogy were true dogma, that people such as Hagen promote, that is misleading. Saying that one knows how Buddhist think is Western arrogance. It is yet another thing to quote Pirsig's opinion on the book, and then claim that a selected passage without explanation is meaningful. Talk about being stuck in words...!
Yes, it is a trap. I am just using it to make Marsha think. Can't tell if there is anything going on in there yet, there is an obstinant defense system put up for whatever reason, static baggage. Meanwhile I am trying to get through parts of Summa Theologica. This was the use of Aristotelian logic to convince others on the reasonableness of Christianity. Domed I think since Western logic does not apply. I think the same may be true when we debate the attributes of quality. Aquinas' arguments are brilliant, so I am trying to learn from them. He did get us out of the church dominated dark ages. Maybe we can get out of the SOM dark ages... Mark On Nov 9, 2011, at 3:38 PM, X Acto <[email protected]> wrote: > Mark, > Thats exactly why the ancient greeks considered the prime mover "immovable" > because change or flux is a distinction made apon that which evades > distinction. > > -Ron > > .. > > From: 118 <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 5:30 PM > Subject: Re: [MD] seeing > > Hmmm... You gotta love this Hagen guy. > > Buddhas do not see flux. The concept of dependent arising is a tool > among many used to gain Buddhahood according to the doctrines > supposedly stated by Gautama. Such a concept is dismissed once > Buddhahood is reached. What Buddhas see is exactly what everyone else > sees, they just think it is funny. Hagen seems to ascribe strange > perceptions to Buddhas. Now, the "interrelationship of all" is close > to Quality as I understand it. Such interrelationship is that which > is in the present moment. Such a concept is embodied by Relationalism > rather than Relativism (which seems to be Hagen's hang-up). > > There is no need to abide by the static concepts of flux and dependent > arising as there are many other ways to get there. For example, if > one were to meditate on the Munchhausen Trilemma for as long as it > takes, an understanding of Buddhism can be reached without resorting > to fluxes. Hagen seems to want to make it much more mystical and > bizarre than it is. All one has to do is drop static quality. The > more one wraps up the moment in static quality, the more hidden it > becomes (although the bows sometimes look nice). Perhaps it is the > persistence of memory that is at fault. > > http://drawing100.wikispaces.com/Paola+Duck > > "We are all Buddhas, we just think differently." > Adobadas, 224 BC > > Thanks for the quote, it shows where Westerners get it wrong. > > All in my humble opinion, of course. > > Cheers, > Mark > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:13 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> "While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism recently >> out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and published by >> Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows the similarities, >> between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any other I have seen." >> >> Pirsig to McWatt, May 6th 1998. >> >> >> --- >> >> >> "When buddhas look at the world, they don't _see_ solidity. They don't >> _see_ selves_. They see only flux. >> >> "This is not to say that the awakened no longer see forms like the rest of >> us. They do. But they _see_ forms --- or, rather, "formness" --- illusory. >> They _see_ that all things arise together. They _see_ that the apparent >> existence of anything is dependent on all that it is not. And they _see_ >> this dependence as nothing other than change and motion themselves. >> >> "The Buddha called this phenomena dependent arising. Dependent arising is >> the formula, "When this arises, that becomes." When the days lengthen, >> spring flowers bloom. When days shorten, autumn colors appear and leaves >> fall from the trees. Spring glowers are inseparable from lengthening days; >> autumn colors are inseparable from days of less and less light. Indeed, >> spring flowers _are_ the longer days; fall color _are_ the shorter days. In >> Reality, all phenomena work together as a seamless whole. >> >> "Dependent arising is not vague, mystical, remote, intellectual stuff. >> The buddha-dharma is very practical and down-to-earth. Just pay very close >> attention to your actual experience, and you'll _see_ it for yourself." >> >> >> (Hagen, Steve, ‘Buddhism: Plain and Simple’, p.146) >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
