Mark,
John was complaining about the "less useful". Perhaps "less useful" if one were relying on their being an independent, unchanging, permanent truth or knowledge. That's why I suggested "less useful" being relative. - I never suggested that "not other" was an end, so I am sure why you needed to remind me. Marsha On Mar 25, 2012, at 11:33 AM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Marsha, > It seems that the quotes you present point to exactly what John is saying. > Through Guenthers's own postulations he is pointing beyond such such > deductive verification. Words are fingers pointing, that is what makes them > useful. We do not look at the fingers themselves but where they are > directing our attention. That could well be the unity of Quality, but also > beyond that. Your "not other" is not an end, but just another step. Keep > trucking'! No pressure tho'. > > Sent laboriously from an iPhone, > Mark > > On Mar 25, 2012, at 12:42 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Greetings John, >> >> "This is supported by Herbert Guenther 204 (1957, p.144) who adds: >> >> Experience is the central theme of Buddhism, not theoretical postulation >> and >> deductive verification. Since no experience occurs more than once and all >> repeated experiences actually are only analogous occurrences, it follows >> that >> a thing or material substance can only be said to be a series of events >> interpreted >> as a thing, having no more substantiality than any other series of events >> we may >> arbitrarily single out. >> >> "After some thought, I think Guenther’s comment is valid as I can’t think of >> any events that are repeated exactly. Moreover, like the concept of ‘self’, >> there’s no absolute objective rule to judge when one event starts and >> another stops. This means that any concept or term is fundamentally >> indeterminate, imprecise and, as time passes, increasingly less useful." >> (MoQ Textbook) >> >> Marsha: >> "Since no experience occurs more than once", and not repeated exactly, then >> experience is ever-changing. This means, as Anthony recognizes, that "any >> concept or term", or any value pattern (I suggest), is fundamentally [that's >> FUNDAMENTALLY] indeterminate (DQ). This is also stated as: >> >> >> "In addition to the Dynamic Quality viewpoint of the MOQ corresponding to >> what Nagarjuna terms sunyata (i.e. the indeterminate or the world of >> Buddhas), the static quality viewpoint of the MOQ also corresponds to >> sunyavada (i.e. the conditioned component or world of maya) of Nagarjuna. >> Sunyavada includes all conceptions of reality including metaphysical views, >> ideals, religious beliefs, hopes and ambitions; in other words, using MOQ >> terminology, static quality patterns. >> >> >> "Moreover, Nagarjuna (1966, p.251) shares Pirsig’s perception that the >> indeterminate (or Dynamic) is the fundamental nature of the conditioned (or >> static): >> >> In their ultimate nature things are devoid of conditionedness and >> contingency belongs to this level. This very truth is revealed by >> also saying that all things ultimately enter the indeterminate dharma >> or that within the heart of every conditioned entity (as its core, as >> its >> true essence, as its very real nature) there is the indeterminate >> dharma. >> While the one expresses the transcendence of the ultimate reality, the >> other speaks of its immanence. The one says that the ultimate reality >> is not an entity apart and wholly removed from the determinate, but is >> the real nature of the determinate itself. >> >> "Nagarjuna and Pirsig also have a similar recognition of two types of truth; >> the ‘static’ conventional truth (sammuti-sacca) and the ‘Dynamic’ ultimate >> truth (paramattha- sacca)." >> (MoQ Textbook) >> >> >> Marsha: >> Static quality is not other than Dynamic Quality. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 24, 2012, at 4:34 PM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Marsha, >>> >>> First off, >>> >>> "Less useful" is not synonymous with "useless". I agree completely, of >>> course. But my point remains. While "less useful" is not the same as >>> useless, it sure is antonymous with "more useful" and that is my claim. >>> That it is precisely linguistic conceptualization's tendency to overgrow >>> it's boundaries (or to jump a level!) that makes it so precious, so >>> important and makes humans so much more than mere machines. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 3:43 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi John, >>>> >>>> Not sure what your problem might be, and not sure that I have any dominion >>>> over what you find problematic. I'm pretty much at ease with >>>> indeterminate, and depend on the provisional (static) like most everybody >>>> else. >>>> >>>> >>> Dominion? Like I could be dominated, Hah! Or you for that matter. We >>> share that much in common at least. What resonates with me is the Ellul >>> quote I provided some long time ago in the past, that it is precisely >>> language's ambiguities and misunderstandings which make it MORE useful >>> rather than less, cojoined with C.S. Peirce's idea of language as a sign, >>> and not a discrete "thing". That's the baggage I carry which makes >>> Pirsig's scientific bent, as revealed in the quote, problematic for me. >>> >>> Take care, >>> >>> Me. >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
