Greetings John,
"This is supported by Herbert Guenther 204 (1957, p.144) who adds:
Experience is the central theme of Buddhism, not theoretical postulation
and
deductive verification. Since no experience occurs more than once and all
repeated experiences actually are only analogous occurrences, it follows
that
a thing or material substance can only be said to be a series of events
interpreted
as a thing, having no more substantiality than any other series of events
we may
arbitrarily single out.
"After some thought, I think Guenther’s comment is valid as I can’t think of
any events that are repeated exactly. Moreover, like the concept of ‘self’,
there’s no absolute objective rule to judge when one event starts and another
stops. This means that any concept or term is fundamentally indeterminate,
imprecise and, as time passes, increasingly less useful."
(MoQ Textbook)
Marsha:
"Since no experience occurs more than once", and not repeated exactly, then
experience is ever-changing. This means, as Anthony recognizes, that "any
concept or term", or any value pattern (I suggest), is fundamentally [that's
FUNDAMENTALLY] indeterminate (DQ). This is also stated as:
"In addition to the Dynamic Quality viewpoint of the MOQ corresponding to what
Nagarjuna terms sunyata (i.e. the indeterminate or the world of Buddhas), the
static quality viewpoint of the MOQ also corresponds to sunyavada (i.e. the
conditioned component or world of maya) of Nagarjuna. Sunyavada includes all
conceptions of reality including metaphysical views, ideals, religious beliefs,
hopes and ambitions; in other words, using MOQ terminology, static quality
patterns.
"Moreover, Nagarjuna (1966, p.251) shares Pirsig’s perception that the
indeterminate (or Dynamic) is the fundamental nature of the conditioned (or
static):
In their ultimate nature things are devoid of conditionedness and
contingency belongs to this level. This very truth is revealed by
also saying that all things ultimately enter the indeterminate dharma
or that within the heart of every conditioned entity (as its core, as its
true essence, as its very real nature) there is the indeterminate dharma.
While the one expresses the transcendence of the ultimate reality, the
other speaks of its immanence. The one says that the ultimate reality
is not an entity apart and wholly removed from the determinate, but is
the real nature of the determinate itself.
"Nagarjuna and Pirsig also have a similar recognition of two types of truth;
the ‘static’ conventional truth (sammuti-sacca) and the ‘Dynamic’ ultimate
truth (paramattha- sacca)."
(MoQ Textbook)
Marsha:
Static quality is not other than Dynamic Quality.
Marsha
On Mar 24, 2012, at 4:34 PM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Marsha,
>
> First off,
>
> "Less useful" is not synonymous with "useless". I agree completely, of
> course. But my point remains. While "less useful" is not the same as
> useless, it sure is antonymous with "more useful" and that is my claim.
> That it is precisely linguistic conceptualization's tendency to overgrow
> it's boundaries (or to jump a level!) that makes it so precious, so
> important and makes humans so much more than mere machines.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 3:43 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> Not sure what your problem might be, and not sure that I have any dominion
>> over what you find problematic. I'm pretty much at ease with
>> indeterminate, and depend on the provisional (static) like most everybody
>> else.
>>
>>
> Dominion? Like I could be dominated, Hah! Or you for that matter. We
> share that much in common at least. What resonates with me is the Ellul
> quote I provided some long time ago in the past, that it is precisely
> language's ambiguities and misunderstandings which make it MORE useful
> rather than less, cojoined with C.S. Peirce's idea of language as a sign,
> and not a discrete "thing". That's the baggage I carry which makes
> Pirsig's scientific bent, as revealed in the quote, problematic for me.
>
> Take care,
>
> Me.
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