Marsha said to dmb:
I find it more _useful_ to label objects of knowledge (stuff contained in an
encyclopedia) as 'static patterns of value' ("patterns") rather than 'truths'.
RMP selected the best word when he chose 'patterns'; it offers the best
representation. If you think it is confusing that I go along with RMP's
vernacular, I suggest that it is you who is confused.
dmb says:
Your inability to grasp the meaning of Pirsig's terms is on full display once
again. In this case you are opposing terms that Pirsig equates. You are pitting
the pragmatic truth AGAINST static patterns even though Pirsig says that truth
IS exactly that.
PIRSIG in LILA: James said, "Truth is one species of good, and not, as is
usually supposed, a category distinct from good, and coordinate with it." He
said, "The true is the name of whatever proves itself to be good in the way of
belief." "*Truth is a species of good*." That was right on. That was *exactly*
what is meant by the Metaphysics of Quality. Truth is a static intellectual
pattern *within* a larger entity called Quality.
Where Pirsig says "truth IS a static intellectual pattern", Marsha says "I find
it more useful to label knowledge as static patterns rather than truth". How
can anyone fail to see how utterly confused that is? Equal terms are
misunderstood as opposite terms. Is it even possible to be more mistaken than
that? I don't see how.
Marsha said:In my understanding of the MoQ there is Quality(Dynamic/static);
"pragmatic truth" belongs to William James. I prefer to use RMP's term 'static
patterns of value'. If you'd like to compare and contrast the MoQ's 'static
patterns of value' with W. James's 'pragmatic truths', please do. Maybe you
could write a paper and submit it to a professional organization/journal to be
reviewed by a board of scholars? Otherwise, blow it out your ass!
dmb says:
As any reasonable person can see from the quote above, Pirsig is the one
claiming that James's conception of truth was "right on" and "exactly what is
meant by the MOQ". This is another case wherein Marsha turns equal terms into
opposite terms, but in this case we even have Pirsig on record explicitly
saying that the terms have EXACTLY the same meaning.
On top of that intellectual mess, Marsha is also being rather vulgar, insulting
and, above all, dishonestly evasive. Going by her track record of opposing
equal terms and equating opposed terms, Marsha will take this to mean that
she's being classy, kind and intellectually honest.
In what strange world is it considered "useful" to employ the wrong labels for
everything? In what sense is it "useful" to be mixed up about the meaning of
words? What use could such contradictory utterances be to anyone? It sure isn't
helping Marsha to make any sense.
Yesterday I posted a long reply to David Harding explaining how the pragmatic
theory of truth fits into the larger structure of the MOQ. I won't ask you to
accept it, to agree with it or even to like it. But if you can convince me that
you understand it, I'll send you a one-hundred dollar bill with an autographed
apology written on it. (Suitable for framing!) You can't lose money on this
deal. It's not a bet. I'm just saying I'll pay real money to see you make sense
of words in a row and to put words in a row so that they make sense.
Can you do it? I think my money is quite safe.
------------------------------------------------------------
> On Sep 21, 2012, at 12:02 PM, david buchanan wrote:
“. . . the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist on a single exclusive truth.
If subjects and objects are held to be the ultimate reality then we're
permitted only one construction of things - that which corresponds to the
'objective' world - and all other constructions are unreal. [This is widely
known as the correspondence theory of truth - anyone can look it up.] But if
Quality or excellence is seen as the ultimate reality then it becomes possible
for more than one set of truths to exist. Then one doesn't seek the absolute
Truth.' One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future this
explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until something better comes
along."
"The difference between a good mechanic and bad one, like the difference
between a good mathematician and a bad one, is precisely this ability to SELECT
the good facts from the bad ones on the basis of quality. He has to CARE! This
is an ability about which formal traditional scientific method has nothing to
say. It's long past time to take a closer look at the qualitative preselection
of facts which has seemed so scrupulously ignored by those who make so much the
these facts after they are 'observed'. I think that it will be found that a
formal acknowledgment of the role of Quality in the scientific process doesn't
destroy the empirical vision at all. It expands it, strengthens it and brings
it far closer to actual scientific practice." (ZAMM 281-2, emphasis is
Pirsig's)
"It is this identity that is the basis of craftsmanship in all the technical
arts. And it is this identity that modern, dualistically conceived technology
lacks. The creator of it feels no particular sense of identity with it. The
owner of it feels no particular sense of identity with it, The user feels no
particular sense of identity with it. Hence, by Phaedrus' definition, it has no
Quality." (ZAMM 290-291)
"The way to solve the conflict between human values and technological needs is
not to run away from technology. That's impossible. The way to resolve the
conflict is to break down the barriers of dualistic thought that prevent a real
understanding of what technology is - not an exploitation of nature, but a
fusion of nature and the human spirit into a new kind of creation that
transcends both. (like the first airplane flight or the first steps on the
moon.) ...But this transcendence should also occur at the individual level, on
a personal basis, in one's own life, in a less dramatic way." (ZAMM 291)
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