25 nov 2012 kl. 01:24 wrote 118 <[email protected]>: > Hi Marsha, > All I have is my opinion. Rhetoric is not about being correct, it is about > being persuasive. When Quality is put at the forefront, correctness is not > the point. Rhetoric brings about awareness, not truth. > > Did you find Pirsig persuasive in his depiction of Quality? If so, why? > What could he have expressed differently? Did he give you a good awareness > of his Quality? It seems like there are many who do not have a clue, and > don't even want to discuss the central subject matter of his books. What is > a discussion of a metaphysics of Quality without the Quality part? > > Cheers, > > > Mark >
Shure Mark, what is a map without the landscape? What is a portrait without knowing the model? Is it possible to have a discussion without a discussion matter? The matter of MD is MOQ, which is RMP's view on Quality. It is quite clear by MOQ that Quality 'per se' is impossible to discuss, we can only discuss the picture of the landscape by using words for parts of what we see, not the landscape itself, because the closer we try to describe what we experience, the source of our experience will change into someting else every tiny second. Schrödinger's cat will be dead/alive. Static patterns, maps and names will do as long as we call them temporary static models of the landscape. A map doesn't have to be perfect to be useful. Some maps are better than others however and I think much of the discussion here should be about this betterness. Pragmatism is about usefulness by this. pWhy are some rhetoric better for example? Is it possible to observe Quality and what is the difference between the direct observation and the results from the observation? Is it possible to tell something about a wolf from observing the tracks he leaves in the sand? Here is a list of places where MALC is read this week, but does it have quality? Encarnación, Itapua Jaipur, Rajasthan Gwalior, Madhya Pradesh Chacabuco, Buenos Aires Bangalore, Karnataka Örebro, Örebro Län Jodhpur, Rajasthan New Delhi, Delhi Indore, Madhya Pradesh Bhubaneswar, Orissa Gurgaon, Haryana Arboga, Västmanlands Län San Jose, California Navi Mumbai (New Mumbai), Maharashtra Murshidabad, West Bengal Emeryville, California Olavarría, Buenos Aires Vellore, Tamil Nadu Kuala Lumpur, Wilayah Persekutuan Bogotá, Cundinamarca Jan Anders > On Nov 24, 2012, at 1:20 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Hi Mark, >> >> You may be correct. I'm still at the thinking stage. The more I think >> about it, the more there is to consider. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> On Nov 24, 2012, at 12:12 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Marsha, >>> In my opinion the transition from the oral can be expressed as the flipping >>> of DQ/SQ to SQ/DQ. With words comes the objectification of reality. The >>> transition of the subjective to the objective. The written word >>> establishes this objectification. >>> >>> Many read MoQ hoping to find Quality in the words. As a result, we end up >>> with a literal Quality which is purely objective. This is the problem with >>> taking what Pirsig writes as dogma; as a set of rules that must be >>> followed. As a result, one cannot appreciate Quality. Pirsig warns about >>> this in his books with metaphors such as the "ghost of reason." >>> >>> I am much more of an auditory learner than a visual one. I like stories to >>> be told to me rather than reading them. If Pirsig were to read Lila to us, >>> much would be clarified about what he is presenting. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> On Nov 23, 2012, at 5:59 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Greetings, >>>> >>>> I've been thinking about words, well, words and their relationship to >>>> time. What might have changed when words went from an oral (hearing) >>>> tradition to a visual (books etc.) tradition? Isn't sound immediate and >>>> more dynamic? In the oral tradition, by the time you get to the last >>>> syllable of qual-i-ty, the sound of the first syllable is almost gone, >>>> while the word on a page does not cease to exist. The visual, written >>>> tradition, is certainly prone to be far more static. How does the >>>> transition from an oral tradition to a written tradition figure onto the >>>> level split between the social level and the intellectual level? Or even, >>>> does it figure into the split? >>>> >>>> I remember trying to read Goethe's Faust (English translation.) I could >>>> not read silently and have it make sense. Finally, I took it into the >>>> bath with me each night and read it out-loud, and soon emerged the most >>>> wonderful rhythm and words with all sorts of deep meaning. And of course >>>> after that I loved Herr Goethe. I still have a desire to experience >>>> hearing Faust in the original German, and I do not understand German. >>>> Ahhhhh. Anyway, what might have changed when words went from an oral >>>> tradition to a visual tradition? >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
