Marsha, That's a neat selection of quotes but no explanation for why they have been compiled together. I'm more interested in hearing your thoughts rather than reading a selection of quotes; even quotes by the one and only Dr Bob Pirsig!
Bob wrote to me, May 6th 1998: "While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism recently out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and published by Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows the similarities, between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any other I have seen." Ant McWatt comments: Remember just because Zen Buddhism and the MOQ have similarities, it does not mean they're identical. If they were, they'd be little point in reading ZMM and LILA. As such, you can't assume that what Hagen asserts about Zen Buddhism (such as change being linked to dukkha) also holds true for the MOQ. For instance, remember this quote by Pirsig?: "The MOQ sees the wheel of karma as attached to a cart that is going somewhere - from quantum forces through inorganic forces and biological patterns and social patterns to the intellectual patterns that perceive the quantum forces. In the sixth century B.C. in India there was no evidence of this kind of evolutionary progress, and Buddhism, accordingly, does not pay attention to it. Today it’s not possible to be so uninformed. The suffering [i.e. dukkha] which the Buddhists regard as only that which is to be escaped, is seen by the MOQ as merely the negative side of the progression toward Quality (or, just as accurately, the expansion of quality). Without the suffering to propel it, the cart would not move forward at all." (Bob to Ant, March 23rd 1997) It's one of my favourite quotes of Pirsig's (even though the cart imagery has been "borrowed" from Hagen). Anyway, your implication that change is dukkha doesn't ring true because some change - at least - is positive e.g. if I'm seriously ill and am treated successfully; I doubt that could be termed dukkha. In fact, I'd suggest just the opposite! Best wishes, Ant P.S. Interesting to note that Hagen studied under Dainin Kategiri Roshi for fifteen years; probably at the same time that the Pirsigs attended the Minneapolis Zen Center in the 1970s. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marsha compiled a selection of quotes (on March 18th 2013) from the MOQ Textbook (introduction found at http://robertpirsig.org/Textbook.htm) and Steve Hagen's book "Buddhism; Plain & Simple" (Tuttle, 1997): > "While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism recently > out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and published by > Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows the similarities, > between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any other I have seen." > > Pirsig to McWatt, May 6th 1998. > > > ------------- > > > "The second form of dukkha is change. All aspects of our experience, both > physical and mental, are in constant flux and change. > > "Whatever we think, whatever we can point to or look at or talk about, is in > constant flux. If we are in our ordinary state of mind, as opposed to an > awakened state, this flux registers as dissatisfaction, disturbance, dukkha. > > "Even if we manage to make our situation comfortable for the moment, it can > only be temporary. All circumstances surrounding this momentary situation > will inevitably change. And when they do, our momentary pleasure will depart, > only to reveal dukkha once again. > > "This attempt to nail down the world is a profound, if subtle, manifestation > of the second form of dukkha. It is so painful and disturbing because it's > nothing more than our desperate attempt to defy Reality. We may long for an > other-worldly abode, a place where such pain and vexation will never strike. > We may even try to create such a place, internally or externally. But no such > place exists, or ever has, or ever can. A moment reflection on death should > make this obvious. Everything that lives must die; everything that comes into > being must come to an end or change its form. It is simply impossible for > anything to exist and not change. > > "So long as we remain in our ordinary state of mind, there's no escape from > inevitable dukkha brought about by change. But we tend not to look at this. > Instead, we generally try to control and manipulate the world: our lives, our > relationships, events, people. This attempt is the single greatest source of > the second type of dukkha. > > "Until we _see_ that this is so, our highest priority will still be to get in > there and control and manipulate. We honestly believe that in doing so we can > make the world better for ourselves and everyone else. We won't realize that > all we create in the process is havoc --- pain, vexation, and mental and > physical distress: dukkha. > > "Our one way out is not through control or intentional action, but through > _seeing_. _Just seeing_ is enough. But how and what to _see_? We 'll come to > that shortly." > > > (Hagen, Steve, ‘Buddhism: Plain and Simple’, pp.30-31) . Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
