Hi Ant, On Mar 18, 2013, at 2:30 PM, Ant McWatt <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Marsha, > > That's a neat selection of quotes but no explanation for why they have been > compiled together. I'm more interested in hearing your thoughts rather than > reading a selection of quotes; even quotes by the one and only Dr Bob Pirsig! > Why? Do you enjoy reading dmb's attacks on my thoughts? Marsha > Bob wrote to me, May 6th 1998: > > "While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism > recently out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and > published by Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows > the similarities, between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any > other I have seen." > > > Ant McWatt comments: > > Remember just because Zen Buddhism and the MOQ have similarities, it does not > mean they're identical. If they were, they'd be little point in reading ZMM > and LILA. As such, you can't assume that what Hagen asserts about Zen > Buddhism (such as change being linked to dukkha) also holds true for the MOQ. > For instance, remember this quote by Pirsig?: > > "The MOQ sees the wheel of karma as attached to a cart that is going > somewhere - from quantum forces through inorganic forces and biological > patterns and social patterns to the intellectual patterns that perceive the > quantum forces. In the sixth century > B.C. in India > there was no evidence of this kind of evolutionary progress, and Buddhism, > accordingly, does not pay attention to it. > Today it’s not possible to be so uninformed. The suffering [i.e. dukkha] > which the Buddhists regard as > only that which is to be escaped, is seen by the MOQ as merely the negative > side of the progression toward Quality (or, just as accurately, the expansion > of quality). Without the suffering to > propel it, the cart would not move forward at all." (Bob to Ant, March 23rd > 1997) > > It's one of my favourite quotes of Pirsig's (even though the cart imagery has > been "borrowed" from Hagen). Anyway, your implication that change is dukkha > doesn't ring true because some change - at least - is positive e.g. if I'm > seriously ill and am treated successfully; I doubt that could be termed > dukkha. In fact, I'd suggest just the opposite! > > Best wishes, > > Ant > > > P.S. Interesting to note that Hagen studied under Dainin Kategiri Roshi for > fifteen years; probably at the same time that the Pirsigs attended the > Minneapolis Zen Center in the 1970s. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Marsha compiled a selection of quotes (on March 18th 2013) from the MOQ > Textbook (introduction found at http://robertpirsig.org/Textbook.htm) and > Steve Hagen's book "Buddhism; Plain & Simple" (Tuttle, 1997): > > >> "While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism recently >> out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and published by >> Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows the similarities, >> between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any other I have seen." >> >> Pirsig to McWatt, May 6th 1998. >> >> >> ------------- >> >> >> "The second form of dukkha is change. All aspects of our experience, both >> physical and mental, are in constant flux and change. >> >> "Whatever we think, whatever we can point to or look at or talk about, is in >> constant flux. If we are in our ordinary state of mind, as opposed to an >> awakened state, this flux registers as dissatisfaction, disturbance, dukkha. >> >> "Even if we manage to make our situation comfortable for the moment, it can >> only be temporary. All circumstances surrounding this momentary situation >> will inevitably change. And when they do, our momentary pleasure will >> depart, only to reveal dukkha once again. >> >> "This attempt to nail down the world is a profound, if subtle, manifestation >> of the second form of dukkha. It is so painful and disturbing because it's >> nothing more than our desperate attempt to defy Reality. We may long for an >> other-worldly abode, a place where such pain and vexation will never strike. >> We may even try to create such a place, internally or externally. But no >> such place exists, or ever has, or ever can. A moment reflection on death >> should make this obvious. Everything that lives must die; everything that >> comes into being must come to an end or change its form. It is simply >> impossible for anything to exist and not change. >> >> "So long as we remain in our ordinary state of mind, there's no escape from >> inevitable dukkha brought about by change. But we tend not to look at this. >> Instead, we generally try to control and manipulate the world: our lives, >> our relationships, events, people. This attempt is the single greatest >> source of the second type of dukkha. >> >> "Until we _see_ that this is so, our highest priority will still be to get >> in there and control and manipulate. We honestly believe that in doing so we >> can make the world better for ourselves and everyone else. We won't realize >> that all we create in the process is havoc --- pain, vexation, and mental >> and physical distress: dukkha. >> >> "Our one way out is not through control or intentional action, but through >> _seeing_. _Just seeing_ is enough. But how and what to _see_? We 'll come to >> that shortly." >> >> >> (Hagen, Steve, ‘Buddhism: Plain and Simple’, pp.30-31) > > > > . > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
