[DM] good, nor do I, but essentialist science often talks of laws... [Arlo] Well, no one here is an "essentialist science". So we agree that 'stability' in patterns does not imply absolute, eternal permanence? Good.
[DM] I think MOQ places all SQ in a wider DQ background, it should embrace the ocean if change, and recognise the fragility of SQ, open to change at any moment... [Arlo] No one is saying, or has said, the SQ has (or should have) primacy over DQ. Of course, evolution is 'balance' between stability and the dynamic quality. What we are talking about, I thought, is the statement "static patterns are ever-changing". I made three general criticisms of this phrase. (1) the implication that 'change' is an aspect of 'stability' (rather than the beginning response to DQ), (2) the pragmatic 'value' of a stable pattern is precisely the value that 'it does not change', its the predictive/dependableness from which evolution is able to build. (3) the need to affix the descriptor "ever-changing" to SQ is built of a confusion of the MOQ's central distinction between 'stability' and the 'creative force/dynamism'. To this last point, I've suggested that "static patterns evolve ['change'] in response to Dynamic Quality" is a much more accurate statement that "static patterns are ever-changing" (which conflates these, then ignores DQ). Which of these (if any) do you agree with, and which do you disagree with? [DM] Does all SQ contain DQ, and vice versa, it is what the yin yang symbol implies. [Arlo] My personal opinion that its all Quality. 'Dynamic' and 'static' are categorical descriptors (literally, adjectives to the same noun). This type of Quality, that type of Quality. I can see the value in saying "The entire metaphysical landscape is Quality (which includes Dynamic and static)". Someone more familiar with the intricacies of the Yin-Yang will have to answer you question. [DM] obviously when a pattern repeats or 2 things are the same, change is absent, but they do not repeat for ever or stay the same for ever, so in some sense change is present as an ineliminable possibility, ready to burst forth, so any static pattern is ever-ready to change, but to remain static for a while it stays the same, repeats, or delays change, but change never sleeps for ever. [Arlo] Again, no one says things 'stay the same for ever'. When you say "so any static pattern is ever-ready to change", I'd say you make the same conflation error as Marsha, and a better way to say this is "so any static pattern is capable of responding to Dynamic Quality". Do you see the difference? Think of it this way. When you are at the hospital and the doctor says "your heart rate is stable", you don't interpret this to mean that your heart rate is is going to be unchanging throughout eternity, fixed down the the tiniest micro-second, do you? But the value here is in the stability. Stable/static patterns of value provide the pragmatically unchanging foundation for every emergent activity that appears out of them. It is the 'stability' of my motorcycle (on every level) that affords me the ability to ride it, to repair it, to know that its there when I wake up, to know it hasn't morphed into a frog, to know that if I stop for gas, gas will still power it... and on and on. I KNOW that the motorcycle will one day disappear as its atoms collapse into a black hole, but it is from stability that all its value arises. [DM] I entirely agree, SQ has value, we have to recognise and value it, we cannot make sense of independent reality without recognising it. [Arlo] I'm not sure what this means. SQ *is* value. That act of 'recognition' is an act of 'valuing'. You can't recognize something that has no value. [DM] before you can see the connection between DQ and SQ you have to get clear about the distinction. [Arlo] I agree with this sentiment entirely. Its precisely why "static patterns are ever-changing" is applying a band-aid to a confusion. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
