DMB: In a certain sense, perception entails conception. 

DM: Yes in a certain sense I agree,  but obviously in the full and normal 
sense,  conception is formal,  abstract and based in language,  so has nothing 
to do with pre-conceptual percepts,  yet we experience sameness and identity 
and repetition and pattern,  you realise I am right but your dogma stops you 
from fully admitting it,  this is the real reason this conversation cannot 
progress.
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