dmb says: Good point, Andre (and Ant). DQ is experience itself, which is also known as "the primary empirical reality," while faith is approximately the opposite of that.
Andre: Thanks dmb. The grotesque problem with Ian's suggestion is that it seriously nullifies Pirsig's effort and shows a complete misunderstanding of Pirsig's achievement. The suggestion really reintroduces a religious faith again, in this case in 'quality'. One can only look on in horror and disbelief what a philosopher like Plato would do with this and since most subsequent philosophies are mere 'footnotes to Plato' we return to what?...faith and superstition, Absolutism, Objectivism, Realism, Subjectivism, modernity, post-modernity, post-post-modernity? dmb to Dan: Good point, Dan. I think art, science and religion are all under one umbrella, as you put it, because DQ is the source of each. Andre: Yes and this refers of course to what happened with the three during the Enlightenment Era... . For obvious reasons they were ripped apart but as Ken Wilber argues, the tragedy was that they were left dangling on their own. They were never reintegrated because one never identified the ground, the root, the foundation from which all three sprang...i.e. DQ or Quality. The result was and still is devastating: Ken Wilber: 'We have flatland. We looked at this as good news, bad news. The good news of modernity was that the Big Three were differentiated- art, science, morals (religion). The bad news was that they had not yet been integrated, and this allowed an explosive science [without any morals] to colonize and dominate the I and we domains'. (Ken Wilber, A Brief History of Everything' p 226). Of course Wilber has his own agenda and his own ways of saying and doing things but I am pretty sure he is no enemy of the MOQ. Pirsig of course reintegrates the lot of them and many others because: 'a Quality-centered map of the universe provides overwhelming clarity of explanation where all has been fog before. In the arts, which are primarily concerned with value, this was expected. A surprise, however, came in the fields that were supposed to have little to do with value. Mathematics, physics, biology, history, law- all of these had value foundations built into them that now came under scrutiny and all sorts of surprising things were revealed. Once a thief is caught a whole string of crimes is often solved'. (LILA, p 109) Without wanting to interfere/disturb too much it seems that Ian as well as John are trying to put on a burglary act without realizing (?) what they are potentially robbing us of. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
