Nikolas, On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Blodgett, Nikolas <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Dan, > I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Its still a little nerve-wracking, as > I'm new at this and I haven't had much practice with honest philosophical > discussion with people who genuinely understand my point and have something > to say in return. You have made me feel quite welcome, and appreciate that > sentiment while I get used to how this works. I feel quite rusty to be > honest, as if my words arent' doing my thoughts justice! Anyway thank you > kindly.
Hi Nikolas, It's great to have you aboard. > > Dan: > No. Growing up in an isolated culture like North Korea is bound to be > far different than coming of age in say, Brooklyn. I've witnessed > differences here in the United States. Drive 500 miles south of > Chicago and the entire culture changes. People may speak English but > it isn't the same language I'm used to. It takes me several months to > not only speak that southern dialect but to hear it too. > > Nik: > I wasn't clear about my thoughts here, but I am thrown for a loop by this > reply anyway. There is definitely context to contend with, and the > difference between regions, nations, and continents matters quite a bit. I > suppose proximity was my point, in that people with similar backgrounds > tend to have similar values. It isn't always easy to see these > similarities, and our minds tend to see what is different. What is > permanent in our surroundings tends to become part of the noise of the > background, and thus do the similar parts of those closest to us. Driving > to another part of the country can give one a 'culture shock', another > country Im sure the values change dramatically the farther one goes. Dan: It's interesting for me that you bring this up. At the moment I'm exploring the ramifications of a relationship between two people who come together briefly a few times a week and who live within an hour of each other and yet whose lives and backgrounds are so completely different it is fair to say they would never meet unless the confluence of their lives happened to play out just the way it did. So in essence proximity takes on a multi-pronged feel... not only in space and in time but in commonality and in acceptance or rejection. Though we might be neighbors living on the same street and passing each other every day on our way to work our cultural backgrounds might well be such we will never come together in spirit, so to speak. Conversely, with the rise of the internet, people who are living in far flung countries half way around the world find themselves coming together to share their most intimate thoughts. > > Dan: > Nagel has been mentioned here before. This is a finely tuned paragraph > to be sure. That most people regard the world as objectively real is > beyond dispute. What Nagel suggests here is rather than bringing the > mind into an accord with that supposed objective reality, what might > be occurring instead is that the mind reorders itself with its > perceived external view of itself. He is rejecting correspondence > theories, materialism, and idealism all in one fell swoop. Observer > and observed become one. Interesting stuff... > > Nik: > You know, I had to do a paper recently on Berkely, and he was the farthest > towards "we create reality around us" I think I've seen! I don't disagree > with him, but came across Nagel a few years ago when I started to question > the nature of 'knowledge' and 'truth' and 'facts'. I got to the point where > I saw everything as completely subjective, and could find a way to give > science any creedance. I have come to the conclusion, as per Nagel (or even > Sagan had a similar notion in one essay I read where he was discussing a > grain of salt), that although we might not be able to know EXACTLY the > nature of reality around us it benefits us to continue to make progress > scientifically; even if we will continually have to change the way we > discuss the findings because of the changing cultural misgivings. Dan: Absolutely. I think that's what gives science its power. Falsifiability allows the progress of science to continue even when scientists themselves are certain of their results and the perfection of their analysis. The MOQ outlines a framework whereby it's possible to see how each new discovery no matter how brilliant also contains the seeds of its own demise. Too, I think we begin to see that idealism is as limiting as materialism if we continue thinking in terms of the subjective vs the objective. Rather, if we begin seeing reality as composed of patterns of value we start to understand that the nature of the world is smeared upon us like strawberry jam on bread, neither separate nor together. > > Dan: > I think if you bring the MOQ into play here and start with the notion > that value and morals are the same just as observer and observed, then > we begin to see that language is far from arbitrary. Even what we term > 'automatic reflex' is the result of a foundation of values built into > our language(s) and consequentially into culture... all culture. The > differences occur when certain values are more advantageous than > others but at the root of all human affairs we share commonalities > > This is why I bring up the language subject alot, and I think 'relativity' > would be a better way to describe language than 'arbitrary'. Especially if > you look at post-modernists such as ... his name escapes me at the moment, > but Baudrillard is a good example instead; it becomes important to think of > any word being able to attach to any idea. And when we think of the history > of any word, it becomes apparent to me at least that historical context > basically decides what word will represent what idea. This changes with > time, and social movements tend to slowly change those meanings and words > over time. I completely agree that our reflexes are built into us by > culture, and I think language is a result of the same culture. So we get > the current situation where we all seem so different. It berefts our > humanity to forget that underneath all the striking differences, the > similarities remain buried in the noise of the environment we have come to > assimilate ourselves into. Dan: Sure, that makes sense. Many times I find myself searching for just the right word to convey a thought, or more properly perhaps the nuances tied up behind the thought. The English language is a borrowed language. At times I find myself dipping into Spanish to find my meaning and other times into French or even Latin. The Germans are particularly apt at describing occurrences in one word that for me might take an entire paragraph. The Arabic language is filled with words that convey all manner of thoughts in ways English can only dream of doing. Maktub, or it is written, is a particular favorite of mine. But then again if my English speaking brethren fail to understand my meaning I've made a misstep anyway, unless they're willing to stretch for it. So we walk a fine line between, as you say, being buried in the noise of the environment, and exalting in the joy of discovery. > > Dan: > Agreed. It's good not to become too dogmatic about anything. On the > other hand, it is also good to understand the foundations of what we > are discussing, namely the MOQ, and how it pertains to not only the > individual but the world at large. > > Agreed indeed! I think I might have come a long way from my past with this > book, but it has remained faithfully foundational to every new idea I come > across for examination. The MOQ has been my guide through the past number > of years of my life experience and my schooling. It felt far away > sometimes, but there is always something that will come along once in a > while and hit me like cold water to the face ... bringing it all flooding > back to me. The idea that all of existence and reality can be explained by > Quality is something that I think will forever hold itself as the ground on > which my own large-scale theoretical beliefs are built. Although it took me > a while to re-integrate scientific importance, I am relieved to find it not > so difficult. The one thing that keeps my nose to the grindstone in my > studies of such science is the idea that behind every theory, behind every > research article, behind every sentece, word, concept, or quote - is > another human being with feelings, flaws, families, friends, failures, and > fundamental beliefs. This makes everything seem chaotic sometimes, but I > just remind myself that I can always appeal to the fact that everyone will > intuitively be able to recognize a quality idea or experience from one > without. The results may vary, but I can always appeal to our common nature > when I find myself face to face with a person who does not share a similar > attitude. I tried to avoid becoming too involved with society, but I have > convinced myself to do so on the basis that I would be wasting my > potential, as well as the effort my father put into raising me in his life, > if I didn't just 'go for it' and stop thinking so hard. 'Just do it' is a > cliche at this point (thanks alot Nike), but it really is quite apropos > regarding the MOQ ... at least in my opinion. Here's to leading a quality > and fulfilling life, no matter the strife and struggles of not being > understood! Dan: Well spoken! Sometimes connecting the dots leads nowhere, but somethings it leads everywhere. No long ago a friend asked me to pick him up at the airport. O'Hare Field is an hour away so not problem. We made small talk driving home. He is about my age, close to 60. I asked him where he went to school. To my surprise he tells me how he spent a year in Russia as an exchange student in high school and what stuck in his mind was how the Russian people coveted his blue jeans. It wasn't so much that he was an exchange student that surprised me but rather how I'd been working on a story about a man traveling across Russia in about that same time period and I was stuck on how he managed without any source of income and no job. Blue jeans, of course... the man sold his blue jeans. The thing is, I'd heard that about blue jeans being the thing in Russia before. I simply hadn't connected the dots though. I think a good portion of our daily lives are spend learning and forgetting. The totality of the world is such that we have to do that in order to make any sense at all out of the constant barrage of information coming our way otherwise we'd be overwhelmed by it. By mindful participation and artful engagement we're able to navigate the turbulent waters of reality filled with treacherous undercurrents and make some small accounting it all. Or so we can hope. Thank you, Dan http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
