> On Mar 15, 2015, at 5:21 PM, david <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ron said to dmb: > > Speaking of this Dave [the MOQ's levels], I was kicking around the notion > that the Sophists were promoting social good. Wondering what you may make of > that in terms of conflict with Socrates intellectual good. > > > dmb says: > > As I read it, Plato would like us to see the Sophists that way, as something > appealing to common opinions, feelings, emotions and otherwise less than > intellectual. And this is an argument that Plato won a long time ago. But > this is exactly what Pirsig is resisting. He wants to tell a different story > wherein the Sophists were teaching Quality, just like himself.
Ron replies: But were they teaching Quality just Like Bob? We only have Plato's Protagoras to really get a feel for what was being taught and why. he claimed to teach "the proper management of one's own affairs, how best to run one's household, and the management of public affairs, how to make the most effective contribution to the affairs of the city by word and action" DMB quoting RMP: > "Lightning hits! > > Quality! Virtue! Dharma! That is what the Sophists were teaching! Not > ethical relativism. Not pristine "virtue." But areté. Excellence. > Dharma! Before the Church of Reason. Before substance. Before form. > Before mind and matter. Before dialectic itself. Quality had been > absolute. Those first teachers of the Western world were teaching Quality, > and the medium they had chosen was that of rhetoric." > > I think he means that the Sophists put Quality above not only physical and > social goods but also intellectual good. Quality is absolute in a ubiquitous > way, permeating everything including excellence in thought and speech. Ron replies: I think the Sophists as representative Of Protagoras agree with Pirsigs assertion that intellect support Social goods and never undercut Them. "The portrayal in the Protagoras shows little trace of relativism, either individual or social; instead he maintains that the essential social virtues are justice and self-restraint, and that without universal inculcation of those virtues the survival of society is impossible." -Stanford This leads me to believe Protagoras saw that justice and self restraint We're not only necessary for human Society but a natural out growth of Nature, as universal truths. Also, That excellence was good citizenship. > > > Ron continued: > > Ant and I were recently discussing the encapsulation of the Good off list and > coincidentally I found it in Philebus where the discussion revolves around > pleasure and reason. I found it in Philebus specifically 65a-e. You have to > read the entire thing to get the gist of how it involves the forms. [...] > Scholars agree that this was one of Plato's last works. Timeaus is where I > can put my finger on using that encapsulation as a vehicle for the demiurge. > As far as I know, this was one of the few texts available to early Christian > thinkers. > > > dmb says: > > It's certainly possible to make a scholarly case that the most common and > persistent interpretations of Plato are mistaken in some way but I think > that's almost beside the point because those common and persistent > interpretations constitute the history of philosophy and that's what Pirsig > is taking on.[...] Ron replies: True, yet It seems the root of his rhetorical argument lies in just where he agrees with the ancients and where things began to Go wrong. The Sophists We're not ethical relativists. Protagoras was The only Sophist charged with that Philosophic crime. If He is going to recover the root of western philosophy, It seems to me he must clarify what we do have in the way of textual evidence to support his claims. Stanford encyclopedia of Philosphy Has done most of the work here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sophists/ > Thanks Dave > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
