[Bo] To promote religious beliefs is as far from my mission as possible but the MOQ has a lot to say about religions which it relegates the role of major social patterns. As I see it the new Testament Christianity is much intellect-influenced, Jesus was a sensitive "antenna" who picked up the signals from Greece and became a intellectual pioneer in the social-value steeped Mid East (his "Christ" aspect is not my concern) and one sees the intellectual footprint in his rebellion against Mosaic Law.
[Case] This is simply misinformed. Jesus's teaching were straight from the Jewish law. From the greatest commandment (Deuteronomy) to the golden rule (Leviticus) to his statement that he came to fulfill the law not to abolish it, Jesus was a true blue Jew. The Greek influence in Christianity crept in the second century when all of the Jewish followers of Jesus had been killed or run out of Israel by the Romans. The conflict between the direct followers of Jesus and the upstart Gentile church is detailed in Acts and Paul's letters. Galatians chapter 2 is particularly enlightening on this point. [Bo] He claimed that the said law was for the good of humans, not the other way round, and also claimed the equality of all humankind, all of which goes squarely against the social credo that the individual only has value by belonging to - and if necessary sacrificing itself for - for the common cause. (On God's behalf of course). [Case] Jesus said the Law should be written in man's heart. But this law of the heart was actually stricter than the written law. For example it goes against the written law to commit adultery but Jesus said it has just as sinful to look upon a woman with lust. While Jesus' attitude toward woman may not have been typical for his time. He did include woman among his inner circle after all. He did not see all people as equal. In the parable of the Good Samaritan he uses the Samaritan because everybody hated them. His point was not to laud the equality of the Samaritan but to highlight the hypocrisy of the Scribe and Pharisee. He does not wish to speak to the Samaritan woman at the well and he has to be coaxed into helping the centurion with the dead daughter. In fact Jesus rants against the scribes and the Pharisees, who were the founders of modern Judaism. His bitch against them was that they were over intellectualizing the law by analysis and reason. They were tithing their herbs and letting the poor suffer. As for how individuals should act toward one another he said if a man asks you to walk a mile with him, walk two. If he asks for you shirt give his you coat as well. He said a man has not greater love than to sacrifice himself for another. [Bo] Islam and Judaism have not had a "Jesus" to loosen their social bonds and only have the choice between orthodoxy and apostasy.. [Case] The Jews did not need Jesus to loosen their social bonds they had the Romans for that and the Babylonian before them. But it was the strength of Jewish culture that prevailed in both instances and the Jews remain among the most remarkable peoples who ever lived. I believe it was Churchill who commented that the very existence of the Jewish people was in itself proof of God's existence. [Bo] The intellectual aspect of Jesus teachings only came to the fore after the Reformation and Enlightenment so Christendom before this watershed were just as social-tied and backward. In your definition of the intellectual level this does not make sense, but the MOQ view leaves you and the SOM in the dust. [Case] Social-tied and backward before the 1500s? The Renaissance, St. Augustine, Acquinas, Da Vinci, Coppernicus, Galileo... But as for the point that Islam breeds fanatics all I can say is DUH! For the past 1000 year Europeans has seen fit it invade, steal their land, loot their resources and treat them like crap. What a shock that they are resentful. moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
