[Horse] Before we get into another pointless political debate about the wonderfulness of the magnificent individual versus the marvelous collective could we try and think about this maybe from a slightly better perspective - i.e. mine! :)
[Arlo] Your perspective is always good to hear, Horse. First let me clarify, I never posited a "marvelous collective" to a "magnificent individual". Both views are misguided. This is a dialogic pairing, to elevate one over the other is akin to elevating night over day. We DO have "proprietary awareness". This arises from our unique bodily-kinesthetic experience in the world. But the "self" is more than this. The "self" emerges only through the appropriation of the collective consciousness (CC), when in dance with our bodily-kinesthetic (BK) experiences a dialogic referential point arises. I no more elevate the CC over BK experience than I find those who do the reverse misguided. I do take exception, also, at a suggestion that places "Dynamic" with the so-called "individual", and static with the CC, for the "self" is BOTH. Already Platt has jumped on yet another rhetorical dichotomy to elevate the so-called "individual" above his distorted notion of a collective consciousness. Intellectual activity, the emergence of static intellectual patterns, arises from the dialogic activity of social individuals. A singular "individual" does nothing. A collective does nothing. But the two in dance gives rise to higher levels (this is true for all MOQ-level relations). In this same way, Dynamic activity is enabled by this dance, not by one or the other, and not in the appallingly simplistic Randian model. A baby left on a deserted island not only would have no "self" (as we understand it) but would be wholly incapable of producing social or intellectual patterns. These things are only enabled by the interplay between the emergent collective consciousness and the bodily-kinesthetic "proprietary awareness" of the biological agent. And yes, "collective intelligence" is a misnomer to refer to this. Collective consciousness is much more accurate. However "intellectual patterns", I must point out, ARE collective patterns. They are the result of social-historical dialogic activity. They do not arise from individuals-in-isolation, only individuals-in-collective. Pirsig did not write the MOQ alone, he wrote it with Kant, James, Dusenberry, Chris, his wife, his students, his professors, and countless larger and smaller voices and echoes. He was (is) certainly a "keystone" species in its development, but even his statement that he wishes to see it grow beyond him into something larger reminds us that its "birth" is not its "end". It is evolutionary, and it is evolutionary precisely because it is dialogic. His voice in one voice in a dialogue. Without the dialogue, the voices would have nothing to say. Without the voices, the dialogue would cease. It is not a matter of "static-Dynamic", but a matter or mutually-emergent phenomena. Indeed, I tire of this whole ridiculous debate, and its perennial devolution into this "epic battle" nonsense. For no matter how many times we go round, its always the same thing; if you don't wank off to the Glorious Individual, you are evil collectivist who denies the value of people (witness Micah's recent typical, and expected, distortions). "Proprietary awareness" and the "collective consciousness" are the forever intertwined, inseparable, dialogic, yin and yang co-constructs of the emergent "self". If you don't think so, let's drop a few babies off on their own deserted islands for a few decades and then come back and see what wonderfully Dynamic or intellectual patterns these proprietary agents create. Let's see how many even have names for themselves, let alone write novels or invent things. Recall Pirsig's accurate criticism of Descartes. It is not enough "to think" to make an "I am". This must be preceded by "so and so culture exists". Bottom line, its a dance, not a war. moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
