Quoting Horse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi Platt
>
> In terms of how a 'city' emerges I think this is correct. The whole
> process is also self organizing and this is the fundamental reality of
> emergence.
We part company on "self-organizing." For me that's attributing change to
God or a ghost because identifying the "self" in "self-organizing" is left to
the
imagination. It's like "spontaneous" whereby something happens for no cause
or reason. Or "chance," the favorite of Darwinians. All boil down to "We
don't know." Or, as Wilber, says, "Oops," a city emerges. In short, I think
"emerge" is a cop out, like life "emerged" from a mixture of forces and
chemicals,
which explains nothing.
> But the other thing to remember here is that it doesn't have
> to be overly concerned with individuality or creativity - although these
> may also be factors in any modern city. The city (or any other social
> pattern) is not concerned with the individual or what it does, only with
> the interactions and how those interactions become complex and
> sufficiently ordered to attain a level of stability. Sometimes
> individuality and creativity are anathema to the patterns of the city -
> think of big planning, often initiated by a creative individual.
> Individuals, along with their creativity and their intellectual
> patterns, come and go but the city still remains as collective knowledge
> - i.e. social patterns of value.
Yes, this is the Pirsigian view of the "Giant." It's based on the notion
"You can't fight city hall." I don't buy the idea of personifying a nation or
a city like Pirsig does, or as expressed in your words, "The city is not
concerned with the individual . . ." Cities and social patterns aren't
"concerned"
except as expressed by individuals anymore than a corporation like EXXON is
"concerned" about the high price of gasoline. Assigning personal attributes
to collectives is when the arguments you are trying to settle begin.
Best regards,
Platt
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