Hi All
On 15 May 2000, at 18:49, 3rdWavedave wrote:
> My "slaying giants" post way directed at an underlying grumble I've sensed in both
>forums from a
> significant number of people who seem to fall into the group Pirsig identifies this
>way:
>
> " Sometimes people think there are some evil individual "men" somewhere who are
>exploiting them,
> some secret cabal of capitalists, or "400" or "Wall Street bankers," or WASPs or
>name -any- [ Giant
> of your dreams] that gets together periodically and has secret conferences on how to
>exploit them
> personally." (Lila p 217)
>
Dave, please correct me if I've misinterpreted what you are saying but from the above
it
would appear that you believe that there is some problem with the belief that there
are
individuals and groups that set out to deliberately and cynically exploit other
individuals and
groups. For the sake of illumination I've ignored the use of 'evil', 'secret cabals'
etc. as they
tend to distract.
Two names (and their corporations) immediately spring to mind:
Bill Gates & Microsoft
Rupert Murdoch & Newscorp
Are you saying that neither Gates nor Murdoch deliberately and cynically exploit or
conspire
with others to do so?
On another level you could try referring to the Multilateral Agreement on Investment
(MAI) for
further illumination of groups/cabals etc. getting together in order to consciously
exploit. You
could also try some Chomsky or go to http://www.zmag.org
I make no bones whatsoever about being a vocal part of the group you identify above -
to do
otherwise would be to ignore a massive body of evidence and my own experience.
As I said in my post of 1st May:
"A Giant in MoQ terms is (simply put) some pattern of values created by Social value
of
which a City is but one instance. A Giant can be a University or a Corporation or a
Government or whatever Social pattern utilises biological patterns for its own ends."
There exist a great many giants which are associated with human existence and a great
many associated with non-human existence.
I completely agree with Magnus regarding ant colonies, bee-hives etc. as fine examples
of
social value creations. A giant has no need of intellect and I believe that an ant
colony is
probably a better (purer) illustration of social value than is a human city or
corporation etc.
The problem with a [human!!] city as an example of a seperate form of existence is
that
there is the intellectual/social tension to contend with as well as the
social/biological
tension.
Many humans (especially those imbued with 'Western' values) do not like to believe
that
there exists any other form of existence which surpasses the individual. The current
cult of
individualism confirms this, whilst conveniently forgetting that we are defined by our
relationships within the group framework. Individuals can only be valued as
individuals within
the framework of the group. This doesn't mean that an individual has to be subservient
to the
group or that the group will necesarily supress an individual.
Todd (Gem7th) asks:
"Does the Giant have a Devouring nature? "
I would have to answer yes. It devours to sustain itself as any creature would do.
When it
devours to excess it becomes corpulent and unhealthy and eventually dies.
Todd (Gem7th) asks:
"How do we relate metaphorically to the "City" as the "red blood cell" does to the
body or carbon based life forms does to the inorganic level?"
This ignores the advantage that (some) humans have of intellectual value. Biologically
we
relate to the city as the blood cell does to the body. Intellectually the relationship
is different.
Todd (Gem7th) asks:
"Do you feel the pulse?"
Sometimes. More often I smell the odour.
Horse
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
