Hello Roman, In 2017 in this thread, we requested, and you agreed, that your company would stop using "Mosh" to refer to Termius, and use a phrase like "Mosh-compatible" if you want to explain its ability to interoperate with mosh-server. (You have told us that Termius is a clean-room implementation unrelated to the Mosh codebase.) Despite this, you are still using "Mosh" in your marketing (https://www.termius.com/) and perhaps in your product.
This is continuing to confuse your users, resulting in a continuing support burden on us. Stop using "Mosh." It is a registered trademark referring to our software. Please let us know when this is done. -Keith On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:12 PM Roman Kudiyarov <ro...@termius.com> wrote: > Hi Keith, > > > > On 9 August 2017 at 11:51:44 AM, Keith Winstein (kei...@cs.stanford.edu) > wrote: > > Roman, > > In early May, we had this exchange (also below in this thread). I wrote: > > (3) We've had bad experiences in the past with people (especially iSSH on >> iOS) attempting to implement the Mosh protocol, but with imperfect results, >> and users blaming Mosh for the problems. As with these past cases, please >> don't refer to your implementation as "Mosh." Please refer to it as >> "Termius mosh-compatible mode," with your own name first and >> "mosh-compatible" instead of "Mosh". > > > You replied: > > Sure, no problem. We will make sure that it’s mentioned as >> "mosh-compatible”. > > > We expect your company to honor this agreement -- do you plan to do so? > > > > I'm happy to explain our position further, and maybe you can understand > why this is important to us. Mosh is a piece of software, like OpenSSH or > Chrome. The protocol is called SSP (State Synchronization Protocol). You > have told us that your program is not derived from Mosh, so we really don't > want your company to call it Mosh. It's nothing personal -- but users are > better served knowing the difference. We had a bad experience with somebody > writing what they thought was a compatible implementation, and users > getting confused and blaming us. So we don't want users to think they are > running Mosh when they are running somebody else's application. > > We would be fine with you making statements like, "Termius is > mosh-compatible" or "Termius has a mosh-compatible client" or even "Termius > works with Mosh servers." They key thing here is that it's fine for Termius > to claim mosh-compatibility, or to work *with* Mosh servers. It shouldn't > claim to *be* or to include Mosh, because it doesn't. > > Yes, the text "SSH, Telnet, and Mosh in your pocket" and "... with SSH, > Telnet, and Mosh." appears on your current website, https://termius.com. > You can visit it yourself to see. > > Thanks for your answer. I see your point.Please don’t worry about the > support as we doing it ourselves. We have Mosh integrated into iOS and > Android with around 500,000 users combined. At the moment we can see quite > a big adoption of Mosh and some user requests in our Helpdesk system. At > the same time I can see none of those in this mailing list. > > I believe that the idea/concept of Mosh is much bigger than it’s first > implementation under the GPL license. The GPL license makes it’s hard to > use in commercial apps so there will be more alternative and/or > closed-sourced implementations of the protocol which most of the users call > Mosh(not SSP). > > One of the solutions I can see is to name the current implementation Open > Mosh and keep the name mosh for the protocol. > > Another topic that I would like to raise is the protocol collaboration so > Termius can keep up with the new versions of the Mosh server and release > updates together with other platforms. That would definitely benefits the > users. > > > > -Keith > > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Roman Kudiyarov <ro...@termius.com> wrote: > >> Hi Keith, >> >> Could you please point me where “Mosh in your pocket” is. Honestly I >> can’t find it. Btw, we’ve recently updated both of our websites so you >> might refer to the old version. >> >> In terms of the naming, there are two entities called MOSH: >> 1. *Mosh protocol*. Termius is keen to participate in the discussion of >> the protocol development. We have some thoughts on improving UX, e.g live >> sessions for quick switch between devices. >> 2. *Server and client implementation* of the protocol which is available >> on GitHub. >> >> In general, I find mosh-compatible pretty long and a little bit confusing >> as it’s just a proprietary implementation of the mosh protocol, e.g. there >> are many implementation of the SSH protocol. In addition, we can’t fit in >> in Apple App Store description, e.g. Termius - SSH, Mosh-compatible and >> Telnet client. >> >> In terms of the support requests, we are subscribed to the mosh-devel >> channel and happy with answering questions related to our implementation. >> Btw, we have UserVoice integrated into our apps so we see most of the >> requests right there. >> >> On 7 August 2017 at 7:48:41 PM, Keith Winstein (kei...@cs.stanford.edu) >> wrote: >> >> Hello Roman, >> >> As we requested earlier (below in this thread), could you please refer to >> your software as "mosh-compatible" instead of calling it a mosh client (or >> "Mosh in your pocket" as is on your website now)? >> >> Thank you, >> Keith >> >> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:56 PM, Roman Kudiyarov <ro...@termius.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi there! >>> >>> I’m glad to announce that Termius is a free mosh client for iOS and >>> Android. At the moment we are working on a version for Mac, Windows and >>> Linux. >>> >>> I wonder if it is possible to put a link to termius website from >>> mosh.org so end users have more options to pick up from. >>> >>> On 4 May 2017 at 4:46:24 PM, Keith Winstein (kei...@cs.stanford.edu) >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Roman, >>> >>> Okay, but if we can't see your code, we don't have a good way to start >>> to know if your implementation is "fully compatible" with Mosh (it's not >>> like we have a compatibility test suite for new binary implementations). If >>> you didn't implement it with clean-room approach and were referencing the >>> Mosh code as you wrote your own implementation, we can't tell you if your >>> program is a derivative of Mosh or not. I do appreciate your kind words >>> about Mosh. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Keith >>> >>> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Roman Kudiyarov <ro...@termius.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Keith! >>>> >>>> On 2 May 2017 at 6:40:20 AM, Keith Winstein (kei...@cs.stanford.edu) >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for letting us know! >>>> >>>> (1) Could you please describe the process you used to develop a >>>> clean-room implementation of the Mosh protocol? Did you write up a protocol >>>> specification based on the Mosh source code, and then have somebody else >>>> implement the spec? If so, would you be willing to share the protocol spec? >>>> >>>> Writing the spec would be ideal scenario but we just used the original >>>> source code to learn the protocol and developed our own implementation from >>>> scratch using different set of libraries and frameworks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (2) Is the source code of your implementation available? >>>> >>>> We are not sure about making it open-source as we are going to use as >>>> our competitive advantage and we’ve invested quite a lot of time to get to >>>> this point. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (3) We've had bad experiences in the past with people (especially iSSH >>>> on iOS) attempting to implement the Mosh protocol, but with imperfect >>>> results, and users blaming Mosh for the problems. As with these past cases, >>>> please don't refer to your implementation as "Mosh." Please refer to it as >>>> "Termius mosh-compatible mode," with your own name first and >>>> "mosh-compatible" instead of "Mosh". >>>> >>>> Sure, no problem. We will make sure that it’s mentioned as >>>> "mosh-compatible”. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Keith >>>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Roman Kudiyarov <ro...@termius.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I’m a co-founder of Crystalnix. We work on Termius, cross-platform SSH >>>>> client (iOS, Android, Mac, Windows, Linux and Chrome). Now we have around >>>>> 200K of monthly users! Our team aims to redesign command line UX from >>>>> scratch. Your team has done an amazing job with the mosh protocol which >>>>> was >>>>> one of the most desired features that our users have been asking for. >>>>> >>>>> We had to develop our own mosh client(completely different code-base) >>>>> due to the license restrictions. Anyway our code is fully compatible with >>>>> the current version of the mosh server. Very shortly we are launching beta >>>>> for Android and then will roll out to other platforms as well. >>>>> >>>>> That means that this amazing technology(mosh) will be available for >>>>> huge user base for free! >>>>> >>>>> I just wanted to share those news and say thank you for the job you’ve >>>>> done! >>>>> >>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Kind Regards, >>>>> Roman Kudiyarov >>>>> Termius Team >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> mosh-devel mailing list >>>>> mosh-devel@mit.edu >>>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/mosh-devel >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > >
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