On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Daniel Veditz wrote:
> Ian Hickson wrote:
>> On 13 Sep 2001, Ben Bucksch wrote:
>>
>> Incidentally, the Flash issue seems to me to be a red herring. If, as an
>> end user, I obtain a copy of a GPLed version of Mozilla, and a copy of the
>> proprietary Flash plugin, then the GPL does not stop me from doing
>> whatever I want with the GPLed code, *so long as I don't redistribute it*
>> without following the license.
>>
>> The only case that would be a problem is distributing the proprietary
>> plugin with the GPLed Mozilla with the intent of using the whole as a
>> Flash renderer. In practice, I see no one doing that.
>
> This is *exactly* what Netscape does, ship Mozilla with Flash.
See my last post for an explanation of why I don't think that applies. I
was refering to shipping Mozilla+Flash *as a Flash renderer*, not as a web
browser, which is clearly Netscape's intent.
[snip other comments which paralelled what BenB wrote and which I answered
in my previous post]
> Maximizing the number of users, however, *was* a goal of Netscape when
> they opened the source and created the Mozilla project in the first
> place. If the Mozilla marketshare goes below a certain point MS can
> successfully "embrace and extend" web standards and make Netscape and
> any other browser irrelevant. Some people claim we are there already.
In practice, though, our ability to be used in proprietary projects has
not really affected our market share relative to the market share obtained
through the Netscape brand release. Therefore if Netscape switched to the
GPL, we could switch to the GPL without this affecting market share.
(Also note that our current miserable marketshare is apparently enough to
keep Microsoft on their toes -- without Mozilla leading the way, would
WinIE6 have a "strict rendering mode" with as many bug fixes as it does?)
>>> Are you saying that LGPL code is not "free"?
>>
>> It's not strong copyleft. It is free as much as the MPL is free -- end
>> users are free to do what they like, but the license does not stop people
>> from using non-free software in conjunction with the free code.
>
> True, and javascript is different from C++ and perl. Are you going to argue
> that we should stick to a single programming language, or can you admit that
> likewise different licenses might be preferable in different situations?
Different licenses might be preferable in different situations, of course.
The GPL is not appropriate for documentation, for example. Ideally we
would not need a license at all, if copyright (and other restricting laws,
as BenB pointed out) didn't exist.
> (Just that question please. Once answered we can then argue what's
> best in *this* situation.)
For code, given the goal of promoting free software principles and
hindering proprietary software if possible, the GPL seems to me to be the
most appropriate license today.
>> As an author of free software, I am against people taking my code and
>> using it with code that they are not making free. The GPL protects me
>> against that; other licenses typically do not.
>
> Again, true. The GPL is a great license for projects that want or need to
> defend against incorporation into non-free projects, especially volunteer
> projects worried about parasites profiting from their hard work.
>
> But in the Mozilla case your Modifications are additions to a vast bulk of
> existing code donated for your use by a commercial entity.
And I am very grateful for this. That doesn't change my convictions. :-)
>>> I don't speak less about proprietary environments, but other open
>>> source environments, like the MPL, LGPL etc etc..
>>
>> But the only reason to use those environments instead of the GPL is to
>> allow the use of proprietary code!!
>
> Yes, which is appropriate or even required in some situations.
Like? (Bear in mind that "because there is no free equivalent" is not, for
me, a valid reason. There was no free equivalent to Unix, the C++
compilers, text editors, web browsers, web servers, mail servers, etc...
until someone decided that there should be.)
--
Ian Hickson )\ _. - ._.) fL
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