on 6/10/03 4:02 PM, Garwood, Robin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Krasnov:
>
> "They are? Please explain."
>
> Read a book on anthropology. It's not my job to educate you.
I asked for you to explain your assertion. That's legitimate request in a
discussion.
>
> Krasnov:
>
> "Obviously it's not benign. Participants on this list complain about the
> violence. It exists. West Bloomington is different from West Broadway in
> Minneapolis."
>
> Of course. But if an individual takes a job as a police officer, that
> individual must be expected to deal reasonably with his or her fellow human
> beings, whether on West Broadway or West Bloomington. If a given cop does not
> feel comfortable with that expectation, he or she is in the wrong business.
Agreed.
>
> Krasnov:
>
> "They are enforcing the law: that is what their duties are."
>
> No. Some of them are breaking the law by illegally beating fourteen year old
> boys. To try to excuse such behavior by saying the level of crime is
> "horrendous" in North is as inexcusable as blaming the victim of a rape by
> pointing out the length of her dress.
Would you stop repeating anecdotes of which a complete statement of fact is
not know?
>
> Besides, don't the police have something to do with the level of crime in a
> given neighborhood? Many of the posts I've read about crime on the Northside
> criticize the police for taking too little productive action. As CUAPB has
> pointed out repeatedly: denial or restriction of police services is the
> flipside of police brutality.
Oh, I get it. Enforce the law, but please don't get blood on us.
And certainly don't offend us.
You can't have it both ways.
>
> Krasnov:
>
> "Patrolling a ghetto is not the work of a Constable, it is the work of a
> Soldier."
>
> This mentality is exactly, precisely the problem. Certain MPD officers behave
> as if they're occupying Baghdad. This is extremely, dangerously
> counterproductive. Such thinking endangers the lives of the cops themselves
> (see the City Pages article on Duy Ngo) as well as the lives of innocents. It
> unilaterally reduces the cooperation between the community and the MPD, with a
> collateral reduction in effectiveness.
The police didn't create the crime problem.
> Please tell me you're not a cop. If you are, please find a different line of
> work.
Ad hominem.
So much for discourse.
No, wait, why don't YOU get your POST license and join the Minneapolis PD.
Let's see how you do.
> Krasnov:
>
> "Got any facts, instead of opinions?"
>
> Have you been reading this list for the last week? Has anyone given any
> reason to doubt the "anecdote" of the woman whose son was beaten without
> provocation? Have you read anything about Abu Kassim Jeilani, Barbara
> Schneider, Duy Ngo? Have you read or heard what the police did at the ISAG
> protest, the March 2002 Critical Mass, the first of the U of M riots? Were
> you there for any of these events?
Wasn't Jeilani the guy who walked down the street with a deadly weapon, near
Franklin and Chicago, that is, in a drug location, near a park, two schools
and two churches, refused to drop the weapon, and was shot by the police?
The first of the University of Minnesota riots? The key words here is
<first> and <riots>. You mean there was more than one RIOT?
> Did you attend any of the Civilian Review Authority community meetings last
> summer? I attended all but one. I heard dozens of first-person accounts from
> victims of police violence, none of whom I have any reason to doubt. The
> residents of the Cedar-Riverside towers know to leave a situation as quickly
> as possible if a police car with a certain number rolls up - to avoid being
> beaten and abused. Hell, one brave man even brought his son into a City
> Council meeting to show the bruises he received from officers of the MPD. It
> was televised. But you weren't watching, were you?
No, I don't have a television.
>
> Krasnov:
>
> "Endemic? Because you say so? Because of anecdotes?"
>
> Endemic because hundreds and hundreds of people say so. I've heard them.
> I've actively sought out opportunities to listen. Have you?
Then change the system. Become a cop. Or repeal the statutes that give the
police the power to arrest and use force. Or disband the department.
You and your neighbors should patrol the streets yourselves.
I'm only being half sarcastic. If the situation is as bad as you say it is,
then anything would be an improvement, right?
> I've noted that folks who want to place their heads in the sand (or some other
> dark place) on this issue dismiss any incident of police brutality, no matter
> how well documented, as "anecdotal." The word, unfortunately, does not make
> the experience less real.
It wasn't well documented <here>.
> What would convince you? What would rise above the level of "anecdote"? How
> about millions of dollars in settlements reached by the city with victims of
> police violence?
How about presenting me with a link to the sworn statements of the Officers,
complainant and witnesses? That would rise above the level of anecdote.
<snip>
> The other problem is that your point supports my argument, not yours: the
> ability of government or agents of government (such as, say, a police officer)
> to violate the rights of the individual (by, say, beating on him) must be
> curtailed at all costs.
Then disband the police department, and be done with it.
It must be curtailed at all costs, correct?
>
> And, finally, Krasnov:
>
> "You're pushing the envelope here. Tread very, very, carefully...Madam."
>
> And you just crossed a line. Not only would that reference to my gender not
> be appropriate in any circumstance,
I disagree. It would be appropriate in certain circumstances.
> you didn't even get my gender right. I
> happen to be a... Mr.
Oops.
> Just goes to show what happens when you assume.
No, just an honest mistake. My apologies.
[Mr.] >Robin Garwood
> Seward
TEMPORARY REMINDER:
1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject
(Mpls-specific, of course.)
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