Mike,

I have the right contact there and I'll flag this thread that way in
case they havent already  seen it.

Best,

Martin Hannigan
AS 20940 // AS 32787



On Thursday, September 22, 2016, Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net> wrote:

> Do we have any contacts at Microsoft that we can talk to about this? This
> time around, they are the common denominator. I know people have been
> complaining about this for longer than Windows 10 has been out, so there
> must be some other reasons why other parties we are to blame.
>
> -----Mike HammettIntelligent Computing SolutionsMidwest Internet
> ExchangeThe Brothers WISP
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Curtis <bruce.cur...@ndsu.edu <javascript:;>>
> To: Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net <javascript:;>>
> Cc: Martin Hannigan <hanni...@gmail.com <javascript:;>>, NANOG <
> nanog@nanog.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 16:28:17 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: Re: CDN Overload?
>
>
>   I have seen traffic from Microsoft in Europe to single hosts on our
> campus that seemed to be unusually (high bps) and long.
>
>   I don’t recall if the few multiple hosts I noticed this on over time
> were only on our campus wifi.
>
>   If not perhaps the common factor is longer latency?  Both connects over
> wireless and connections from Europe to the US would have longer latency.
>
>   Perhaps this longer latency combined with some other factor is
> triggering a but in modern TCP Congestion Control algorithms?
>
>
>
> This mentions that there have been bugs in TCP Congestion Control
> algorithm implementations.   Perhaps there could be other bugs that result
> in the descried issue?
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/
> uploads/2016/08/ms_feb07_eval.ppt.pdf
>
>
> I have seen cases on our campus where too small buffers on an ethernet
> switch caused a Linux TCP Congestion Control algorithm to act badly
> resulting in slower downloads than a simple algorithm that depended on
> dropped packets rather than trying to determine window sizes etc.  The fix
> in that case was to increase the buffer size.  Of course buffer bloat is
> also known to play havoc with TCP Congestion Control algorithms.  Just
> wondering if some combination of higher latency and another unknown
> variable or just a bug might cause a TCP Congestion Control algorithm to
> think it can safely try to increase the transmit rate?
>
>
> > On Sep 21, 2016, at 8:29 PM, Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Marty. I have only experienced this on my network once and it was
> directly with Microsoft, so I haven't done much until a couple days ago
> when I started this campaign. I don't know if anyone else has brought this
> to anyone's attention. I just sent an e-mail to Owen when I saw yours.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >
> > Midwest Internet Exchange
> >
> > The Brothers WISP
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "Martin Hannigan" <hanni...@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > To: "Mike Hammett" <na...@ics-il.net <javascript:;>>
> > Cc: "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org <javascript:;>>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 8:19:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: CDN Overload?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> >
> > I will forward to the requisite group for a look. Have you brought this
> to our attention previously? I don't see anything. If you did, please
> forward me the ticket numbers or message(s) (peering@ is best) so wee can
> track down and see if someone already has it in queue.
> >
> >
> > Jared alluded to fasttcp a few emails ago. Astute man.
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >
> > Martin Hannigan
> > AS 20940 // AS 32787
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 21, 2016, at 14:30, Mike Hammett < na...@ics-il.net
> <javascript:;> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jdm0dOBf81kSnXEvVfI6ZJbWFNt5A
> bYUV8CDxGwLSm8/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > I have made the anonymized answers public. This will obviously have some
> bias to it given that I mostly know fixed wireless operators, but I'm
> hoping this gets some good distribution to catch more platforms.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >
> > Midwest Internet Exchange
> >
> > The Brothers WISP
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "Mike Hammett" < na...@ics-il.net <javascript:;> >
> > To: "NANOG" < nanog@nanog.org <javascript:;> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2016 9:08:55 AM
> > Subject: Re: CDN Overload?
> >
> > https://goo.gl/forms/LvgFRsMdNdI8E9HF3
> >
> > I have made this into a Google Form to make it easier to track compared
> to randomly formatted responses on multiple mailing lists, Facebook Groups,
> etc.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >
> > Midwest Internet Exchange
> >
> > The Brothers WISP
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "Mike Hammett" < na...@ics-il.net <javascript:;> >
> > To: "NANOG" < nanog@nanog.org <javascript:;> >
> > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 12:34:48 PM
> > Subject: CDN Overload?
> >
> >
> > I participate on a few other mailing lists focused on eyeball networks.
> For a couple years I've been hearing complaints from this CDN or that CDN
> was behaving badly. It's been severely ramping up the past few months.
> There have been some wild allegations, but I would like to develop a bit
> more standardized evidence collection. Initially LimeLight was the only
> culprit, but recently it has been Microsoft as well. I'm not sure if there
> have been any others.
> >
> > The principal complaint is that upstream of whatever is doing the rate
> limiting for a given customer there is significantly more capacity being
> utilized than the customer has purchased. This could happen briefly as TCP
> adjusts to the capacity limitation, but in some situations this has
> persisted for days at a time. I'll list out a few situations as best as I
> can recall them. Some of these may even be merges of a couple situations.
> The point is to show the general issue and develop a better process for
> collecting what exactly is happening at the time and how to address it.
> >
> > One situation had approximately 45 megabit/s of capacity being used up
> by a customer that had a 1.5 megabit/s plan. All other traffic normally
> held itself within the 1.5 megabit/s, but this particular CDN sent
> excessively more for extended periods of time.
> >
> > An often occurrence has someone with a single digit megabit/s limitation
> consuming 2x - 3x more than their plan on the other side of the rate
> limiter.
> >
> > Last month on my own network I saw someone with 2x - 3x being consumed
> upstream and they had *190* connections downloading said data from
> Microsoft.
> >
> > The past week or two I've been hearing of people only having a single
> connection downloading at more than their plan rate.
> >
> >
> > These situations effectively shut out all other Internet traffic to that
> customer or even portion of the network for low capacity NLOS areas. It's a
> DoS caused by downloads. What happened to the days of MS BITS and you
> didn't even notice the download happening? A lot of these guys think that
> the CDNs are just a pile of dicks looking to ruin everyone's day and I'm
> certain that there are at least a couple people at each CDN that aren't
> that way. ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lots of rambling, sure. What do I need to have these guys collect as
> evidence of a problem and who should they send it to?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >
> > Midwest Internet Exchange
> >
> > The Brothers WISP
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---
> Bruce Curtis                         bruce.cur...@ndsu.edu <javascript:;>
> Certified NetAnalyst II                701-231-8527
> North Dakota State University
>
>
>
>
>

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