The cynicism of doubt to that which we have no knowledge of what we believe not about A paradox, ah, maybe Unorthodoxed, let us see I cannot doubt and I cannot believe that which I know not about
Dion Laurent http://www.dionlaurent.com http://www.earthman1.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Szpakowski" <[email protected]> To: "NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] DIWO at The Dark Mountain Hi Brian <my favorite statement thusfar: "I will not be diverted by the manifesto in a literal way, I will exploit it so I can use my imagination according to my needs to understand it on my terms with a flexible mind, like an artist does :-)"> I totally agree, except I think "diverted" is a mistaken way of seeing it. I think there are actually two related but different things happening here. One is a discussion about the merits of the manifesto as a political document (and I see this as, for me at least -and clearly for some others, but not all, too - an essential preliminary clearing of the conceptual decks) and the other is the artistic dialogue/process *suggested* by themes in the manifesto that is starting to ferment & emerge -one powered by an "art" logic of leaps, discontinuities, the unconscious and metaphor rather than the conventional logic of debate. We could maybe call the first 'Debating it With Others' to distinguish it :) I think it would be a category error to see these things as identical although they are clearly related. Much as I dislike the tone and politics of the manifesto ( and I do more and more) I don't think this will stop it being an interesting departure point for work. In fact it might make it more so. I much prefer doing what Karen outlines in her quote but I don't accept that one should moderate one's opinions or indeed one's tone in the debate bit. To do so would be a much more profound discourtesy to others than the occasional brusqueness... michael --- On Wed, 10/28/09, brian gibson <[email protected]> wrote: > From: brian gibson <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] DIWO at The Dark Mountain > To: "NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity" > <[email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 7:40 PM > honesty, opinions and debate are uncivilized > now? > > maybe a definition of civilization, or rather > how the word is intended to be perceived by diwo at dark > mountain, is in order. > > while arguments for both sides are clear and > warranted, my favorite statement thusfar: > "I will > not be diverted by the manifesto in a literal way, I will > exploit it so I can use my imagination according to my needs > to understand it on my terms with a flexible mind, like an > artist does :-)" > > > > this thread has kept me > refreshing my mailbox..thanks > netbehaviour. > > brian > > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:07 PM, > karen blissett <[email protected]> > wrote: > > well, we > certainly have proved how uncivilized we are on here > ;-( > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Michael Szpakowski <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi Bob > > that's a very genial response to my somewhat > grumpy rant :) > I have to disagree, though. It's not a story - > it's a polemic. It contains things which I believe to be > true and I attempt, successfully or no, to demonstrate their > truth or at least to indicate reasons for believing them to > be so. > > > The notion that we can at random call such things > "stories" indicates a dose of the postmodern > disease where, as with Humpty Dumpty, a word > "mean just what I choose it to mean -- neither > more nor less. " > > > The same thing applies to the (ab)usage of the word > "civilisation" in the manifesto. > cheers > michael > > > > --- On Wed, 10/28/09, bob catchpole <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > From: bob catchpole <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] DIWO at The Dark > Mountain > > To: "NetBehaviour for networked > distributed creativity" <[email protected]> > > > > Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 4:40 PM > > Michael, > > > > I believe your posting can be read as an > important > > 'story'... a passionately expressed > piece of > > writing about the incredible dilemna we're > in... > > > > > > Bob > > > > Michael Szpakowski > > wrote Wednesday, 28 October, 2009 13:41:46 > > > > I live for art but if I *am* in a boat going > over a > > cataract I don't paint a picture of it.... > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NetBehaviour mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > > > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NetBehaviour mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > > > > -- > glimpsecontrol.com > > baiowulf.com > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list [email protected] http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. 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