Perhaps the difference is that I think ISIS would have emerged in spite of
everything; if you look at the relationship between climate change and
that area of the world, you find it running out of water, food, combined
w/ population increase; all of this plays a major role there. The migrants
are fleeing ISIS but they're also fleeing starvation; it's also important
to recognize of course that Wahhabism plays a major role here, and its
predates the "big responsibility" you describe.
Pandora's box, I think, would have been opened in any case.
And in any case, the issue, _now_ is - what is to be done - and Johannes
points out the incredible difficulty here; if Uruguay has 65 emigrants (I
thinkyou mentioned that, not sure?), that doesn't touch on the problem at
all.
Suggestions anyone?
Thanks, Ana, for the discussion!
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Ana Valdes wrote:
Alan you misread me. I said for the poor youngsters recruited from the
poorest and ignorant ISIS is a revenge against everything who they feels
has been stolen from them. I have some Muslim friends in Sweden who have
lost their sons and daughters to ISIS, they felt never accepted in
Sweden, ISIS lure them with belonging. people are not only fleeing ISIS,
they are fleeing Assad bombings of his own ppl too. And the Afgans are
fleeing both their government and the Talibans. And U.S. and England has
a big responsibility on it. When they toppled Saddam and Ghadaffi they
opened the box of Pandora. From the box came out ISIS and many others.
Ana
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2015, at 11:06 PM, Alan Sondheim <[email protected]> wrote:
I have a very different view of all of this, especially ISIS, which you seem to
be excusing. So I assume that you think the refugees fleeing ISIS somehow are
also giving up on dignity? Or you think that dignity comes with heads on a
fence? I can't discuss this any more; I hesitated to post in the first place.
You might also say that U.S. racism thrives in poverty and ignorance, that the
right agrees with you that there are bad leaders and foreign colonizers (from
the rest of the Americas), the right then stands for dignity and stubbonness?
And there's a HUGE difference between India and the killing and fleeing of
hundreds of thousands in the mid-East and Africa. A HUGE difference which you
are apparently blind to.
Apologies for my anger.
Alan
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Ana Valdes wrote:
Dear Alan ISiS thrives in poverty and ignorance. When you live in a country
ravaged by bad leaders and foreign colonizers ISIS stand for dignity and
stubbornness. When a council in India condemn two girl teenagers to be raped
because their brother eloped with a married woman I think ISIS has not the
monopole of violence and bestiality. Sadly Ana
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2015, at 9:06 PM, Alan Sondheim <[email protected]> wrote:
I think the situation's incredibly complicated and not helped by "real guilt" or blame
constantly placed, as if righteous anger does more than express itself; it's interesting that ISIS
isn't even mentioned in this discussion, as if the entire situation is the result of neoliberal
manipulation, nothing on the ground, the peoples in Syria for example might be complicit as best.
And this just isn't true. Nor is it going to be the case that people will stop warfare, rich or
poor - ISIS isn't really all that rich and they will continue; nor is it the case that the refugees
are all farmers etc. - the issue is What is to be done? And this requires work everywhere by all
parties. I don't excuse capital, neolib, or fundamentalist Islam for that matter; the history is
horrible; it's terrible the US is trying to get rid of immigrants here and now - it's obscene -
it's also obscene that Assad is killing "his" own country in the name of who knows what.
Johannes points out the intrac
t
a
b
le - how
does a country absorb close to a million people? What's always overlooked, I'm
guilty of it more than anyone, is the inertia of human beings - the revolution
I don't think is coming in the slightest; capital isn't going to give up
capital; warfare isn't going away; relgions aren't suddenly going to go
tolerant. Don't forget a LOT of this is driven by both overpopulation and
global warming - the dought in the mideast is worse than that in the U.S. west
for example - people everywhere are running out of space and food. I would hope
in Europe the situation might revolve around an EU effort to see the problem as
a totality, not X- refugees in Germany, Y- in France, etc. etc. I would also
HOPE TO HELL that the United States (here I spell US out) would open itself to
taking in refugees as well - but look at our history - even the Jews were
turned away during WWII.
We can't keep going over our local psychogeographies, I think, no matter how
much they inform us; being a Jew, losing people in the Holocaust, for me is
_meaningless_ in this regard, not in terms obviously of mourning what
transpired - but this very thing perhaps suffocates an ability to see a bit
clearer - again - What is to be done? And why is everyone blamed but ISIS? And
isn't this kind of a problematic colonization itself - how dare we blame them
for anything?
- Alan
==
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