i agree that this current crisis has been coming for a long time; many things have contributed to it, & events probably could have played out in various different ways, but the combination of environmental and political factors have been leading towards this for a long time. i agree with alan that ISIS, or something similar, was always going to emerge.
i'm happy that at least in germany (where i live as a privileged migrant who chooses to be here & who can go back home whenever i want) there seems to be the political will to help. 800,000 people is a lot for any country to absorb in a short space of time, but let's not forget that countries such as jordan and turkey already have millions of refugees and much less resources to support them. i don't know what the solution(s) might be, i don't think there is a short-term answer. it must be possible to do more to resolve the situation in syria, but i don't believe that more war is the answer & i know that the problem isn't just syria; it's a whole chain of problems & we are all implicated in it in one way or another. but in the meantime, the least we can do is provide shelter & support to people who have had to flee their homes; & i'm glad that most people in germany want to do this. h x On 31/08/15 6:46 32AM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > Perhaps the difference is that I think ISIS would have emerged in > spite of everything; if you look at the relationship between climate > change and that area of the world, you find it running out of water, > food, combined w/ population increase; all of this plays a major role > there. The migrants are fleeing ISIS but they're also fleeing > starvation; it's also important to recognize of course that Wahhabism > plays a major role here, and its predates the "big responsibility" you > describe. > > Pandora's box, I think, would have been opened in any case. > > And in any case, the issue, _now_ is - what is to be done - and > Johannes points out the incredible difficulty here; if Uruguay has 65 > emigrants (I thinkyou mentioned that, not sure?), that doesn't touch > on the problem at all. > > Suggestions anyone? > > Thanks, Ana, for the discussion! > > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Ana Valdes wrote: > >> Alan you misread me. I said for the poor youngsters recruited from >> the poorest and ignorant ISIS is a revenge against everything who >> they feels has been stolen from them. I have some Muslim friends in >> Sweden who have lost their sons and daughters to ISIS, they felt >> never accepted in Sweden, ISIS lure them with belonging. people are >> not only fleeing ISIS, they are fleeing Assad bombings of his own ppl >> too. And the Afgans are fleeing both their government and the >> Talibans. And U.S. and England has a big responsibility on it. When >> they toppled Saddam and Ghadaffi they opened the box of Pandora. From >> the box came out ISIS and many others. Ana >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 11:06 PM, Alan Sondheim <sondh...@panix.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have a very different view of all of this, especially ISIS, which >>> you seem to be excusing. So I assume that you think the refugees >>> fleeing ISIS somehow are also giving up on dignity? Or you think >>> that dignity comes with heads on a fence? I can't discuss this any >>> more; I hesitated to post in the first place. You might also say >>> that U.S. racism thrives in poverty and ignorance, that the right >>> agrees with you that there are bad leaders and foreign colonizers >>> (from the rest of the Americas), the right then stands for dignity >>> and stubbonness? And there's a HUGE difference between India and the >>> killing and fleeing of hundreds of thousands in the mid-East and >>> Africa. A HUGE difference which you are apparently blind to. >>> >>> Apologies for my anger. >>> >>> Alan >>> >>>> On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Ana Valdes wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Alan ISiS thrives in poverty and ignorance. When you live in a >>>> country ravaged by bad leaders and foreign colonizers ISIS stand >>>> for dignity and stubbornness. When a council in India condemn two >>>> girl teenagers to be raped because their brother eloped with a >>>> married woman I think ISIS has not the monopole of violence and >>>> bestiality. Sadly Ana >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 9:06 PM, Alan Sondheim <sondh...@panix.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think the situation's incredibly complicated and not helped by >>>>> "real guilt" or blame constantly placed, as if righteous anger >>>>> does more than express itself; it's interesting that ISIS isn't >>>>> even mentioned in this discussion, as if the entire situation is >>>>> the result of neoliberal manipulation, nothing on the ground, the >>>>> peoples in Syria for example might be complicit as best. And this >>>>> just isn't true. Nor is it going to be the case that people will >>>>> stop warfare, rich or poor - ISIS isn't really all that rich and >>>>> they will continue; nor is it the case that the refugees are all >>>>> farmers etc. - the issue is What is to be done? And this requires >>>>> work everywhere by all parties. I don't excuse capital, neolib, or >>>>> fundamentalist Islam for that matter; the history is horrible; >>>>> it's terrible the US is trying to get rid of immigrants here and >>>>> now - it's obscene - it's also obscene that Assad is killing "his" >>>>> own country in the name of who knows what. Johannes points out the >>>>> intrac > t >> a >>> b >>>> le - how >>>> does a country absorb close to a million people? What's always >>>> overlooked, I'm guilty of it more than anyone, is the inertia of >>>> human beings - the revolution I don't think is coming in the >>>> slightest; capital isn't going to give up capital; warfare isn't >>>> going away; relgions aren't suddenly going to go tolerant. Don't >>>> forget a LOT of this is driven by both overpopulation and global >>>> warming - the dought in the mideast is worse than that in the U.S. >>>> west for example - people everywhere are running out of space and >>>> food. I would hope in Europe the situation might revolve around an >>>> EU effort to see the problem as a totality, not X- refugees in >>>> Germany, Y- in France, etc. etc. I would also HOPE TO HELL that the >>>> United States (here I spell US out) would open itself to taking in >>>> refugees as well - but look at our history - even the Jews were >>>> turned away during WWII. >>>>> >>>>> We can't keep going over our local psychogeographies, I think, no >>>>> matter how much they inform us; being a Jew, losing people in the >>>>> Holocaust, for me is _meaningless_ in this regard, not in terms >>>>> obviously of mourning what transpired - but this very thing >>>>> perhaps suffocates an ability to see a bit clearer - again - What >>>>> is to be done? And why is everyone blamed but ISIS? And isn't this >>>>> kind of a problematic colonization itself - how dare we blame them >>>>> for anything? >>>>> >>>>> - Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> == >>>>> email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >>>>> web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 718-813-3285 >>>>> music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ >>>>> current text http://www.alansondheim.org/ti.txt >>>>> == >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>>> >>>> >>> >>> == >>> email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >>> web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 718-813-3285 >>> music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ >>> current text http://www.alansondheim.org/ti.txt >>> == >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >> > > == > email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ > web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 718-813-3285 > music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ > current text http://www.alansondheim.org/ti.txt > == > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list > NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > -- helen varley jamieson he...@creative-catalyst.com <mailto:he...@creative-catalyst.com> http://www.creative-catalyst.com http://www.upstage.org.nz /We have a situation!/ Rio de Janeiro, 7 November 2015 <http://www.wehaveasituation.net/?page_id=1222>
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