If we need to hold money for over a year, I would say that we are doing well enough to decide to do something else. It all balances out in the end, so I am not worried about it over much. Call it YAGNI.
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Steve Strong <[email protected]> wrote: > About the only thing I can see with that is that we would probably *have* > to distribute / spend all funds that we receive relatively quickly - if any > was held within your company accounts over a year-end, then it would > presumably be treated as a profit and taxed accordingly - however Israel is > one country where I have zero tax knowledge, so I could be wrong here :) > > > On 03/02/2010 22:40, Ayende Rahien wrote: > > Regarding taxes, I wouldn't worry about it. > We can channel things through my company, and the way taxes work around > here, if I get 100$ and pay 100$, I pay 0$ taxes. > That means that as the middleman, we don't have taxes to pay / worry about. > When it comes to the individual getting the money, however, they DO need to > worry about taxation. > In Israel, as an employee, I would have rather NOT get any money (I would > have to pay an accountant to get it sorted out, which most employees in > Israel don't need to do) unless it was high enough amount. I am assuming > that some people may have similar restrictions. > > My original thinking was that several committers are already > consultants/contrators, who are already setup to do this sort of thing. > > To be perfectly frank, I don't really care if only a small percentage of > the committers get the money, if that means that we can get people working > full time on the project. > Stated otherwise, my goal is *not* to compensate committers, my goal is to > *improve the project*. I think that enabling full time working is the best > way to do so. > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Davy Brion <[email protected]> wrote: > >> my problem with the whole thing about paying committers is two-fold: >> >> 1) the taxes... a substantial part of the money is going to be wasted >> anyway, so we might as well spend it something that doesn't require taxes... >> also, depending on local laws you might have a lot of paperwork to deal with >> if you make extra income outside of your regular job. >> 2) spreading it amongst the committers... number of commits or line count >> doesn't cut it because it doesn't take complexity into account and time >> spent figuring out how certain parts work. For me personally, that's not an >> issue since a) i probably contributed less than anyone else here and b) i >> really don't want anything for the little i did do in the first place.... >> but i definitely wouldn't be surprised if people (past, current and future >> contributors) started catching feelings if they thought they weren't given >> enough according to what _they_ think their contributions were worth >> compared to what others received. Worst case scenario, some people will >> feel slighted and stop contributing altogether. It's a people thing... >> throw money into the mix and it all turns to shit. >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:00 PM, Ayende Rahien <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Taxes are relevant no matter what income source you have. >>> I am saying that we need to split it up into several issues: >>> * Infrastructure costs - As far as I can see, my company can cover things >>> like servers and such. >>> * Paying committers - seems to be more complex than I initially thought >>> * Paying other people for tasks for us - tech writers, for example. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Davy Brion <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> actually, tax is a very important issue here... >>>> >>>> we all take licenses pretty seriously when it comes to software (i'd >>>> hope), and getting money for writing open source software should be held to >>>> the same standard. that means that anyone who gets money for contributing >>>> to open source should declare that money on their taxes... in the end, >>>> depending on the countries of the contributors, about 20 to 40% of the >>>> donated money is just going to be wasted on taxes. >>>> >>>> if we spend it on infrastructure, we probably wouldn't have to waste >>>> anything on taxes... but maybe some kind of non-profit organization would >>>> have to be founded first, i'm not sure on that... >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:45 PM, Steve Strong <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Personally, I'd be inclined to agree. As soon as we try to split the >>>>> cash, it's going to get ever so complex which was kind of the point of my >>>>> previous email - if we do want to "pay ourselves" then we're going to have >>>>> to deal with all of that and more (don't mention tax, anyone). If we >>>>> think >>>>> there's gonna be enough cash to clear our mortgages then perhaps it's >>>>> worth >>>>> it, but since I suspect it's more likely to be the occasional beer & pizza >>>>> I'd rather avoid the overhead. >>>>> >>>>> Having the cash to fund other things (such as technical writers, >>>>> software licences etc.) would be easier to manage and, providing we spend >>>>> it >>>>> wisely, do no end of good to both NH and the community. >>>>> >>>>> I've dealt with various clubs and organizations before where money was >>>>> involved, so understand the complexity that it can lead to. Having said >>>>> that, I've never done it on an OSS project, so I'm happy to be convinced >>>>> in >>>>> either direction :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 03/02/2010 21:22, Davy Brion wrote: >>>>> >>>>> personally, i don't think the money should go to the committers... >>>>> yeah, we do work on it for free but most of us do it because we _want_ to >>>>> work on it, not because it might someday pay some bills >>>>> >>>>> i would vote for spending the money on infrastructure... a faster jira >>>>> server, a faster svn server, things like that... >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:04 PM, Steve Strong <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think the idea is a great one, particularly the offer to match >>>>>> donations - very kind! I do have a couple of comments - firstly, whenever >>>>>> money gets involved, some people have a tendency to loose sight of >>>>>> reality >>>>>> and start seeing $$$ signs in front of their eyes. Given that, I would >>>>>> suggest that we as a group define the rules for how this works prior to >>>>>> taking donations - that way, everyone (us and those donating) understand >>>>>> where the money is going and we don't end up in pointless arguments. I >>>>>> suspect the levels of money won't be all that high, but you never can >>>>>> tell >>>>>> and knowing how it is to be distributed is important. I think we need to >>>>>> answer questions like: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Who is eligible for the money? Any committer? Only "active" >>>>>> committers? What defines "active"? >>>>>> - How is the money split? Do all committers (however that's >>>>>> defined) get the same amount? Is it split by number of commits? >>>>>> Number of >>>>>> lines of code changed? >>>>>> - Who owns the bank account? Who has visibility of it? Is it >>>>>> available for public viewing? >>>>>> - Do we have any other needs for money other than just >>>>>> distributing it amongst individuals? Should we keep a pot for >>>>>> "NHibernate" >>>>>> activities, such as perhaps sponsoring the occasional conference? >>>>>> Hell, if >>>>>> there's enough cash we could even have an NHibernate stand! NHibernate >>>>>> T-Shirts & Mugs anyone?! >>>>>> >>>>>> Secondly, I don't see why you shouldn't take a share of this Ayende - >>>>>> you have made many contributions to the project, and I see NHProf as >>>>>> something different. Although your *knowledge* of NH helped you write >>>>>> it, >>>>>> there was nothing about being a committer that made it possible. Anyone >>>>>> else *could* have written NHProf without being a committer if they'd had >>>>>> both the idea and the ambition to take it forward. NHProf will make its >>>>>> own >>>>>> money and has its own associated costs. I don't really see the two (your >>>>>> commercial activity with NHProf and your altruistic activity with NH) are >>>>>> related. If they are, then any one of us that undertakes commercial NH >>>>>> consultancy or writes or contributes to an NH book etc. would also have >>>>>> to >>>>>> come under the same rules. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any thoughts? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 03/02/2010 17:23, Ayende Rahien wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Guys, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am setting up a donation campaign for NHibernate. As part of that >>>>>> campaign, my company will donate 5,000$ for the project. >>>>>> >>>>>> Below is the text of the blog post that I intend to post. I would like >>>>>> to get your comments and any suggestions on how to make this better. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> NHibernate is the most popular Open Source Object Relational Mapper >>>>>> in the .NET framework. As an Open Source project, all the work done on >>>>>> it is >>>>>> done for free. We would like to be able to dedicate more time to >>>>>> NHibernate, but even as a labor of love, the amount of time that we can >>>>>> spend on a free project is limited. >>>>>> >>>>>> In order to facilitate that, we opened a donation >>>>>> campaign<http://pledgie.com/campaigns/8615>that will allow you to donate >>>>>> money to the project. >>>>>> >>>>>> [image: Click here to lend your support to: NHibernate and make a >>>>>> donation at www.pledgie.com !]<http://www.pledgie.com/campaigns/8615> >>>>>> >>>>>> *What is this money going to be used for?* >>>>>> >>>>>> This money will go directly to NHibernate committers, in order to >>>>>> sponsor the development of NHibernate itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> As one caveat of that, none of that money is going to go to me >>>>>> personally. As you are probably aware, I have my own commercial interest >>>>>> in >>>>>> NHibernate (NHibernate Profiler <http://nhprof.com/>), so I don’t >>>>>> feel I should benefit from the donations. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Donation Matching* >>>>>> >>>>>> Moreover, my company, Hibernating Rhinos<http://hibernatingrhinos.com/>, >>>>>> is going to *match any donation *to this campaign (to a total limit >>>>>> of 5,000$), as a way to give back to the NHibernate project for the >>>>>> excellent software it produced. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Why should you donate?* >>>>>> >>>>>> If you are a user of NHibernate, you gained a lot from build on such a >>>>>> solid foundation. We ask to you to donate so that we can make the project >>>>>> even better. If your company uses NHibernate, ask it to donate to this >>>>>> campaign. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
