You don't need a tappet bleeder (they are nice) as long as you don't mind getting messy. You can work the piston with an awl in a big bucket of light oil. just hold upright. Do it till the bubbles stop.The bleeder tool is just a holder with a pin in it. Makes it a one hand deal. The degree in pays no attention to marks. Once you determine actual TDC (piston stop and split method) you affix a degree wheel to the crank and a pointer. Turn crank to obtain a 1MM valve opening (dial gauge)and note degrees. Correct as needed. Sounds so simple. Rob's 650 was off by one tooth on the intake from marks ( that got it almost perfect) and the exhaust sprocket needed to have it's holes egged out 1/8" to bring it in. Mass production tolerance and wear make for a less than an ideal situation. A 'real" tuner can make additional changes to gain performance. I have a dear friend that builds the world's best 384 Chevys for sprint cars. He was going to show me how to do "lobe center" adjustment. I haven't bothered him as his health is poor now. I swept the floors in his garage when I was 15. My inspiration for a career. Try this for your tappets; insert an awl in the bottom of the tappet and let the awl handle rest on the bottom of a container of oil (level above the tappet) push down on the tappet with a small socket on an extension. Just make the socket big enough to fit over the tip.
--- On Sun, 9/6/09, oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> wrote: From: oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: NH 650 Valve timing - please help Dennis To: "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, September 6, 2009, 11:33 AM Dennis, Thanks. This makes perfect sense - I understand the setup and also the purpose and method of degree in the cams (i'll see how well they line up before considering that one). I think this will enable me to complete it. If only Honda could write a manual this way! I'll let you know how it goes. I have to wait for the tappet bleeder (ordered) so i probably won't reinstall until next weekend. Thanks a bunch. Paul On Sep 5, 11:42 pm, Dennis Hammerl <[email protected]> wrote: > Maybe I can make this a little easier. The crank index has nothing to do with > compression stroke, etc. It only indicates that the piston (#1) is at TDC. > Turning it 360 degrees will bring the piston back to TDC. So, the up marks > could be up or.. down. Let's do this slowly. At TDC, the cam lobes for #1 > should be up. Put the bolts in the sprockets with the up mark, well...UP ! > make sure the alignment marks do..well... align. (with each other) and > parallel to the gasket surface. Rotate the crank and put the other bolts in. > Sounds easy, right ? Not so. Because of valve spring tension, it can be > difficult to get it right. I have found that the easiest way is to get a > sprocket in place and one bolt in by first indexing the sprocket to the crank > (TDC) and holding it in place while I rotate the crank till the hole aligns. > Install the bolt. Now bring it back and check that it went OK. Repeat for the > other cam. It helps if you can unload the tensioner. Now the > danger in having a slack chain is that the whole thing may be off when you > tension the chain. Start over. Like anything else of a very delicate > technical nature, the 500th time you do it, it goes easier. At any rate, > rotate the crank many times before buttoning up. Re-check your work over and > over. If you are getting all this, I'm trying to say it's easier to turn the > crank than the cams, but doing it requires that you exercise extreme care. > The picture you sent showed cams out-of-time in a late condition. That would > produce a poor running engine. When I build for myself or a finicky customer, > I degree in the cams. That requires you to find EXACT TDC and determine if > the cams are opening at the right time by measuring valve lift. The figures > in the spec section of the book (front) are when the valves are open 1MM. The > cam sprocket holes are then ground out to move the cams a small amount to > bring them in to spec. It's not an easy job even to just do a > routine cam install but keep trying, you'll get it. Just remember that the > correct method is for both cams lobes to be up at TDC. You only rotate the > crank 180 degrees to get the other two bolts in. Up, up, lines aligned. A > chain with some wear makes the job go better but also allows you be off when > you're done. If you work the intake cam first with tension on the down run of > the chain, that'll give you a good start. I don't mind any of this. I'd like > to hear you got it. > > --- On Sun, 9/6/09, oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> > Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: NH 650 Valve timing - please help Dennis > To: "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" <[email protected]> > Date: Sunday, September 6, 2009, 1:44 AM > > Dennis, > > In the picture you marked up (and the other 5 i attached) the crank is > definately at TDC as perfect as the eye can be and the crank had been > rotated in the direction specified in the manual. > > I don't have a scanner so here are the exact instructions from the > Honda 650 manual on pg 6-19,20 > > 1. Turn the crank counter clockwise and align the "T" mark on the > pulse motor with the index mark on the crankcase > 2. Set the cam sprockets onto the camshafts with the timing marks > facing to the right. > 3. Place the intake and exhaust camshafts through the cam chain and > into the cylinder head with the No. 1 cam lobes poiting up. > 4. Place the cam chain over the cam sprockets. The "up" marks should > be facing up as shown (it shows a picture with "UP" at the top of the > sprocket as it is installed in the cylinder head) > 5. First align the IN mark of the IN sprocket with the cylinder head > surface. Align the sprocket bolt holes by turning the crankshaft > clockwise and install the intake sprocket bolt. > 6. Then turn the crankshaft to align the EX mark with the cylinder > head surface as shown and install the sprocket bolt. > 7. Rotate the crankshaft, and install the remaining cam sprocket > bolts. > 8. Tighten the four cam sprocket bolts to the specified torque. > > The way I read it, is at TDC on the compression stroke 1) the cam > sprockets should both have "UP" at the top of the sprocket 2) the #1 > cylinder cam lobes must point up and 3) according to your notes, the > IN and EX marks on both sprockets should all be lined up (this is the > part the Honda manual really confuses me on, but i think they want the > IN mark on the Intake sprocket and the EX mark on the Exhaust sprocket > to be alligned with the cylinder head surface - maybe that would make > all 4 marks line up to each other as well?). > > I think the cam sprockets in my 650 were installed upside down because > on the picture you sent back with TDC alligned, and the #1 cam lobe > pointing up, the cam sprockets should have "UP" at the top just as in > this picture (only this is at TDC of the exhaust > stroke)http://16481440758028870596-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/650+CAM+TIMING+E... > > Do you also think the cam sprockets are updside down in comparison to > the Honda manaul? > > Sorry to be such a pain and I hope I haven't made this too confusing > (it's tough to explain in text messages). > > Thanks again, > > Paul > > On Sep 5, 8:11 pm, Dennis Hammerl <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I don't have a 650 manual in front of me. I don't remember them building > > from the right side. Oh well, 700's build from the left. In other words, > > indicator and cam marks are on same side. I can scan the 700 manual page > > and send it. Check this out. Your alignment is out if this picture was > > taken with the crank at TDC. > > > --- On Sat, 9/5/09, oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> wrote: > > > From: oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> > > Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] NH 650 Valve timing - please help Dennis > > To: "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" <[email protected]> > > Date: Saturday, September 5, 2009, 7:05 PM > > > Dennis, > > > Before changing the cam chain tensioner i inspected the timing marks > > against the Honda official manual so that i could make sure to > > duplicate the exact positions. > > > But I thiink the cam timing is not setup correctly to begin with - > > but > > i'm not possitive. > > > I set the "T" mark at the TDC index on the compression stroke (cam > > lobes up on #1 cyl) but the cam sprockets are "down". See picture > > files i uploaded to the files section. There are 3 files > > name .....comression stroke... that show the various comonent timing > > while at TDC. > > > "T" Mark at > > TDC:http://16481440758028870596-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/650+CAM+TIMING+T... > > >http://16481440758028870596-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/650+CAM+TIMING+C... > > >http://16481440758028870596-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/650+CAM+TIMING+C... > > >http://16481440758028870596-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/650+CAM+TIMING+C... > > > Then i rotated the crank one revolution exactly so now it is at TDC > > on the exhaust stroke. In this case the the cam sprockets are up and > > the #1 cyclinder cam lobes are down. > > >http://16481440758028870596-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/650+CAM+TIMING+E... > > >http://16481440758028870596-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/650+CAM+TIMING+E... > > >http://16481440758028870596-a-g.googlegroups.com/web/650+CAM+TIMING+E... > > > Does it look like the cam sprockets were installed 180 degrees out of > > phase with respect to the #1 cyclinder cam lobe position. It seems > > that this would also caus the valve timing to be off slitghtly. The > > bike currently runs a little rough at idle, but pulls really hard from > > 3000 rpm up to 7500 and then at 7500 it pulls harder. > > > Thanks, > > > Paul > > > 650+CAM+TIMING+Compression+Stroke+CAM+Sprocket+Position+Mark#4.jpg > > 596KViewDownload > > > > 650+CAM+TIMING+Compression+Stroke+CAM+Sprocket+Position+Mark #2.jpg > 760KViewDownload- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nighthawk_lovers?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
