On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 06:20:29PM +0200, Mikael Sundqvist wrote:
> Hi,
>
> It is extremely difficult to follow what you write.
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Carlos <linguafa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > If I have the following, with these linebreaks as in:
> >
> > {\par But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
> > influenced by a single person. {\obeylines Once the initial design is
> > complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
> > with many different viewpoints undertake their own
> > experiments.}}
>
> Is that the complete document? What do you have in mind with obeying
> lines in the middle of a paragraph?
it's the only possible way off the top of my head to circumvent body
font size with a given width, while keeping both: the kern of \TeX\
and the double spacing that lmtx injects following a sentence,
within sanity check, hence the nonfrenchspacing
The separation of any of these four components would have hurt T
E X sig
nificantly.
If I had not participated fully in all these activities, literally
hundreds of improvements would never have been made, because I would
never have thought of them or perceived why they were important.
But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly influenced
by a single person. Once the initial design is
>
> >
> > and opted to load another font, other than cmr that is, a \frenchspacing
> > approach wouldn't be further required
>
> cmr? Not used in ConTeXt for a long time. (And what does the changing
> of font have to do with this?)
latin modern.
>
> >
> > Bear with me here, in the current state, for example, and as long as say
> >
> > «…person.␣{\obeylines Once the initial is
> > complete…» though feasible enough, leaves any prior \␣ at the mercy of
> > whatever fontsize and/or set width happens to be. And this is just plain
> > wrong.
>
> What?
>
> >
> > Likewise, if a word sequence such as \TeX\ occurs as in {\ss The separation
> > of any of these four components would have hurt \TeX\ significantly. }
>
> Likewise what?
>
> >
> > The next sentence: «If I had not participated…» does not get any
> > \nofrenchspacing which is equally and doubly problematic. It shows lack of
> > consistency. And this ought not to be an ‹either› ‹or› scenario. But
> > rather, an and conjunctional construct. It fails both ways.
>
> Consistency of what? Spacing? Where? Can you make a complete example?
> (You can show space amount with \showmakup[space])
yes. and showmakeup displays: .SP:10.945 If
rather than for example with: .SP:5.235
OnceSP:3.926
theSP:3.926
initial SP:3.926
designSP:3.926
is
and
:3.586
THK:-1.853
H__E
X
HK:-1.390
SP:3.586
sigRH:0.000
IR:0.000
RS:0.000
LH:0.000
H__nificantlyLS:0.000BS:6.565
and here's your example:
\setuplayout[width=16cm]
\showmakeup
\starttext
Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
system must not only be the implementer and first
large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
user manual.
\setupbodyfont[12.895pt]
{\ss The separation of any of these four components would have
hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
would never have been made, because I would never have
thought of them or perceived why they were important.\par}
Do you see that width of 16cm? That's what throws it off
but then again, anything less than that 12.895 font size, throws off the
kern of \TeX\ too.
As a result, I can't use any lower font size, before everything,
including kerning of \TeX\ and spaces after sentences, are completely
off.
I mean. obeylines serve a better function than having extra spaces all
over with no end in sight, really.
>
> >
> > Furthermore, with the same token, if width is specified with a
> >
> > \setuplayout[width=15cm]
>
> OK, here the game changes...
>
> >
> > Anything less than 12.895pt, especifically for that use case, wwould
> > throw anything, particularly control sequences such as \TeX\ out
> > of whack, and conversely, once a value of that very pt or pica or
> > whatever is lowered, it brings that nonfrenchspacing right back on.
> > And if width increments occur, then it follows that any control sequence
> > kerning
> > also gets thrown off as a result.
>
> Of course the width influences the spacing. That is how the paragraph
> builder works (and really, why it often looks good).
>
> >
> > It seems so far, that with lmtx, any standalone file, document, minimal
> > working example that does not load cmr at the outset does not produce
> > an acceptable outcome either. By saying acceptable I meant to say it
> > namely from a typographical point of view. Nothing else.
>
> I have no clue of what you talk about here.
>
> >
> > from the TeXbook 380-381
> >
> > «\obeylines doesn’t say ‘\def^^M{\par}’, so we must make any desired
> > changes to
> > \par before invoking \obeylines. (2) The \uncatcodespecials operation
> > changes a
> > space to category 12; but the \tt font has the character ‘␣’ in the ⟨space⟩
> > position, so we
> > don’t really want ␣12 . (3) The \obeyspaces macro in Appendix B merely
> > changes the
> > ⟨space⟩ character to category 13; active character ␣13 has been defined to
> > be the same
> > as \space, a macro that expands to ␣10 . This is usually what is desired;
> > for example,
> > it means that spaces in constructions like ‘\hbox to 10 pt {...}’ won’t
> > cause any
> > trouble. But in our application it has an undesirable effect, because it
> > produces spaces
> > that are affected by the space factor. To defeat this feature, it’s
> > necessary either to
> > say \frenchspacing or to redefine ␣13 to be the same as \␣. The latter
> > alternative is
> > better, because the former will discard spaces at the beginning of each
> > line.»
> >
> > «In theory, this seems like it ought to work; but in practice, it fails in
> > two ways. One
> > rather obvious failure—at least, it becomes obvious when the macro is
> > tested—is that
> > all the empty lines of the file are omitted. The reason is that the \par
> > command at the
> > end of an empty line doesn’t start up a new paragraph, because it occurs in
> > vertical
> > mode. The other failure is not as obvious, because it occurs much less
> > often: The \tt
> > fonts contain ligatures for Spanish punctuation, so the sequences ?‘ and !‘
> > will be
> > printed as ¿ and ¡ respectively. Both of these defects can be cured by
> > inserting
> >
> > and
> >
> >
> > «When INITEX creates a brand new TEX, all characters have a space factor
> > code
> > of 1000, except that the uppercase letters ‘A’ through ‘Z’ have code 999.
> > (This
> > slight difference is what makes punctuation act differently after an
> > uppercase letter; do
> > you see why?) Plain TEX redefines a few of these codes using the \sfcode
> > primitive,
> > which is similar to \catcode (see Appendix B); for example, the instructions
> > \sfcode‘)=0
> > \sfcode‘.=3000
> > make right parentheses “transparent” to the space factor, while tripling
> > the stretcha-
> > bility after periods. The \frenchspacing operation resets \sfcode‘. to
> > 1000.»
>
> Everything you cite above is very likely true for plain TeX, but maybe
> not for ConTeXt...
>
> /Mikael
>
> PS I do not think that your emails come out well. In order to get
> help, I would suggest a strategy that not so much only sounds as
> nagging and complaints. One thing that has been lacking is a clear
> explanation of what you really try to achieve.
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
> Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
--
You have a tendency to feel you are superior to most computers.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki : https://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
