> On 18. Aug 2023, at 20:17, Carlos <linguafa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 06:20:29PM +0200, Mikael Sundqvist wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> It is extremely difficult to follow what you write.
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Carlos <linguafa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> If I have the following, with these linebreaks as in:
>>>
>>> {\par But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
>>> influenced by a single person. {\obeylines Once the initial design is
>>> complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
>>> with many different viewpoints undertake their own
>>> experiments.}}
>>
>> Is that the complete document? What do you have in mind with obeying
>> lines in the middle of a paragraph?
>
> it's the only possible way off the top of my head to circumvent body
> font size with a given width, while keeping both: the kern of \TeX\
> and the double spacing that lmtx injects following a sentence,
> within sanity check, hence the nonfrenchspacing
>
> The separation of any of these four components would have hurt T
> E X sig
> nificantly.
> If I had not participated fully in all these activities, literally
> hundreds of improvements would never have been made, because I would
> never have thought of them or perceived why they were important.
> But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly influenced
> by a single person. Once the initial design is
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> and opted to load another font, other than cmr that is, a \frenchspacing
>>> approach wouldn't be further required
>>
>> cmr? Not used in ConTeXt for a long time. (And what does the changing
>> of font have to do with this?)
>
> latin modern.
>>
>>>
>>> Bear with me here, in the current state, for example, and as long as say
>>>
>>> «…person.␣{\obeylines Once the initial is
>>> complete…» though feasible enough, leaves any prior \␣ at the mercy of
>>> whatever fontsize and/or set width happens to be. And this is just plain
>>> wrong.
>>
>> What?
>>
>>>
>>> Likewise, if a word sequence such as \TeX\ occurs as in {\ss The separation
>>> of any of these four components would have hurt \TeX\ significantly. }
>>
>> Likewise what?
>>
>>>
>>> The next sentence: «If I had not participated…» does not get any
>>> \nofrenchspacing which is equally and doubly problematic. It shows lack of
>>> consistency. And this ought not to be an ‹either› ‹or› scenario. But
>>> rather, an and conjunctional construct. It fails both ways.
>>
>> Consistency of what? Spacing? Where? Can you make a complete example?
>> (You can show space amount with \showmakup[space])
>
> yes. and showmakeup displays: .SP:10.945 If
>
> rather than for example with: .SP:5.235
> OnceSP:3.926
> theSP:3.926
> initial SP:3.926
> designSP:3.926
> is
>
> and
>
> :3.586
> THK:-1.853
> H__E
> X
> HK:-1.390
> SP:3.586
> sigRH:0.000
> IR:0.000
> RS:0.000
> LH:0.000
> H__nificantlyLS:0.000BS:6.565
>
>
> and here's your example:
>
> \setuplayout[width=16cm]
> \showmakeup
>
> \starttext
>
> Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
> system must not only be the implementer and first
> large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
> user manual.
> \setupbodyfont[12.895pt]
>
> {\ss The separation of any of these four components would have
> hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
> all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
> would never have been made, because I would never have
> thought of them or perceived why they were important.\par}
>
> Do you see that width of 16cm? That's what throws it off
>
> but then again, anything less than that 12.895 font size, throws off the
> kern of \TeX\ too.
>
> As a result, I can't use any lower font size, before everything,
> including kerning of \TeX\ and spaces after sentences, are completely
> off.
>
> I mean. obeylines serve a better function than having extra spaces all
> over with no end in sight, really.
>>
>>>
>>> Furthermore, with the same token, if width is specified with a
>>>
>>> \setuplayout[width=15cm]
>>
>> OK, here the game changes...
>>
>>>
>>> Anything less than 12.895pt, especifically for that use case, wwould
>>> throw anything, particularly control sequences such as \TeX\ out
>>> of whack, and conversely, once a value of that very pt or pica or
>>> whatever is lowered, it brings that nonfrenchspacing right back on.
>>> And if width increments occur, then it follows that any control sequence
>>> kerning
>>> also gets thrown off as a result.
>>
>> Of course the width influences the spacing. That is how the paragraph
>> builder works (and really, why it often looks good).
>>
>>>
>>> It seems so far, that with lmtx, any standalone file, document, minimal
>>> working example that does not load cmr at the outset does not produce
>>> an acceptable outcome either. By saying acceptable I meant to say it
>>> namely from a typographical point of view. Nothing else.
>>
>> I have no clue of what you talk about here.
>>
>>>
>>> from the TeXbook 380-381
>>>
>>> «\obeylines doesn’t say ‘\def^^M{\par}’, so we must make any desired
>>> changes to
>>> \par before invoking \obeylines. (2) The \uncatcodespecials operation
>>> changes a
>>> space to category 12; but the \tt font has the character ‘␣’ in the ⟨space⟩
>>> position, so we
>>> don’t really want ␣12 . (3) The \obeyspaces macro in Appendix B merely
>>> changes the
>>> ⟨space⟩ character to category 13; active character ␣13 has been defined to
>>> be the same
>>> as \space, a macro that expands to ␣10 . This is usually what is desired;
>>> for example,
>>> it means that spaces in constructions like ‘\hbox to 10 pt {...}’ won’t
>>> cause any
>>> trouble. But in our application it has an undesirable effect, because it
>>> produces spaces
>>> that are affected by the space factor. To defeat this feature, it’s
>>> necessary either to
>>> say \frenchspacing or to redefine ␣13 to be the same as \␣. The latter
>>> alternative is
>>> better, because the former will discard spaces at the beginning of each
>>> line.»
>>>
>>> «In theory, this seems like it ought to work; but in practice, it fails in
>>> two ways. One
>>> rather obvious failure—at least, it becomes obvious when the macro is
>>> tested—is that
>>> all the empty lines of the file are omitted. The reason is that the \par
>>> command at the
>>> end of an empty line doesn’t start up a new paragraph, because it occurs in
>>> vertical
>>> mode. The other failure is not as obvious, because it occurs much less
>>> often: The \tt
>>> fonts contain ligatures for Spanish punctuation, so the sequences ?‘ and !‘
>>> will be
>>> printed as ¿ and ¡ respectively. Both of these defects can be cured by
>>> inserting
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>> «When INITEX creates a brand new TEX, all characters have a space factor
>>> code
>>> of 1000, except that the uppercase letters ‘A’ through ‘Z’ have code 999.
>>> (This
>>> slight difference is what makes punctuation act differently after an
>>> uppercase letter; do
>>> you see why?) Plain TEX redefines a few of these codes using the \sfcode
>>> primitive,
>>> which is similar to \catcode (see Appendix B); for example, the instructions
>>> \sfcode‘)=0
>>> \sfcode‘.=3000
>>> make right parentheses “transparent” to the space factor, while tripling
>>> the stretcha-
>>> bility after periods. The \frenchspacing operation resets \sfcode‘. to
>>> 1000.»
>>
>> Everything you cite above is very likely true for plain TeX, but maybe
>> not for ConTeXt...
>>
>> /Mikael
>>
>> PS I do not think that your emails come out well. In order to get
>> help, I would suggest a strategy that not so much only sounds as
>> nagging and complaints. One thing that has been lacking is a clear
>> explanation of what you really try to achieve.
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>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> --
> You have a tendency to feel you are superior to most computers.
>
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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