Or getting edited out completely at the very end.
2014-03-22 22:42 GMT+01:00 matt estela <m...@tokeru.com>: > Not to talk for Frederik and Ron, but I think the idea is you work to a > low quality first, quick as you can, to judge all the work in context, > anything that _might_ need proper roto and paint work is identified and > discussed, but ideally, you just stick in a placeholder, or nothing at all, > and move on. > > Too many times I've seen things like a massive n-thousand frame roto job, > or incredible 3d model with amazing surfacing, finally make it down the > chain to DI for it to be graded black, or DOF-d out of existence. That's > what the SCRUM system is meant to avoid, judge everything in relation to > its final context. Hopefully. :) > > > > > On 23 March 2014 08:00, Gustaf Nilsson <gus...@laserpanda.com> wrote: > >> Isnt there the risk that half-arsed things need to be redone from >> scratch? Especially paint and cleanup that it is difficult to improve on if >> not done proper from the beginning. >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Ron Ganbar <ron...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> The projects I mentioned were also done in scrums. It helps lots. >>> You get a preliminary version of the whole thing very quickly. Everybody >>> is then aware of several things: the problematic shots; what the whole >>> things looks like; what shots already kinda works; which shots will >>> actually make the difference. >>> Then the second scrum is all about getting the shots finished in the >>> time provided. >>> The third scrum is where the shots that need it get the extra love. >>> Usually the overall time is split 30%-40% | 40%-50% | 10%. >>> Every time I tried a production like this the feeling was always that we >>> used the time in the best possible way. There were no surprises. No late >>> nights in the end. The big problems were dealt with in the beginning. Works >>> a treat. >>> >>> R >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ron Ganbar >>> email: ron...@gmail.com >>> tel: +44 (0)7968 007 309 [UK] >>> +972 (0)54 255 9765 [Israel] >>> url: http://ronganbar.wordpress.com/ >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Randy Little <randyslit...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> I find a lot of places dont like or understand how to work like that. >>>> I tend to always stop at magor points to get feed back before making the >>>> next hard to go back step. I find that seems to meet a lot of resistance. >>>> Like why are you showing me this? Its not done. Well because the next 3 >>>> days of work depend on this being the correct direction. >>>> On Mar 21, 2014 12:39 PM, "Elias Ericsson Rydberg" < >>>> elias.ericsson.rydb...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It seems like being transparent from the beginning rewards itself >>>>> towards the end. In VFX, at least in the digital age, versions and >>>>> increments just comes naturally. I'd love to be in a SCRUM team at least >>>>> once to try it out. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Elias >>>>> >>>>> 21 mar 2014 kl. 16:44 skrev Howard Jones <mrhowardjo...@yahoo.com>: >>>>> >>>>> I like this SCRUMming idea. Something I've always insisted on (though >>>>> not always had my way). >>>>> Nice to know there's a name for it and doesn't involve shoving your >>>>> head between other people's arses (google 'arse' if you're american ;) >>>>> >>>>> What a lot of this seems to come down to is good communication (As >>>>> well as decent leads/supevisors that aren't taking shots the wrong way). >>>>> Open not closed doors. >>>>> >>>>> That's overly simple but ... >>>>> >>>>> On 21 Mar 2014, at 13:19, Fredrik Pihl <fre...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ouch! ;) >>>>> >>>>> Steve... and artists of course.. But what I think the kids are getting >>>>> at, is the barrier between physical and virtual. They live a large part of >>>>> their sparetime in front of their screens being windows into virtual >>>>> worlds >>>>> with which they feel no connection. So when they are told that "Ey boy.. >>>>> this is all props, sets, stunts, rubber, opticals etc.. " they get >>>>> emotionally connected - Oh..its real stuff... Weird isn't it? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> One of the biggest time and money wasters, in my opinion, is the fact >>>>>> that directors aren't accessible to the people whos work needs to be >>>>>> directed >>>>> >>>>> Yes indeed Frank! And: >>>>> >>>>> don't bother putting a competent (!) post production manager in place. >>>>>> If post production was managed like a shoot (where everything costs money >>>>>> every minute you are on set), things would be radically different; >>>>>> director >>>>>> feedback would be weighted against the financial repercussions, and >>>>>> concessions would be made to achieve "good enough" every single day >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> These are some of the heavy points that were addressed in our setup >>>>> making a HUGE impact on throughput. >>>>> - Demanding the directors presence on a daily basis.. sometimes even >>>>> sitting beside the leads setting looks. Things got approved and ticked off >>>>> in SG by the VFXproduction coordinator. >>>>> - The VFXproducer (me) answered directly to the production company and >>>>> by that could say no to the director -"no.. we cannot do it like that, >>>>> it's >>>>> too demanding on our resources.. but we can do this...and keep the >>>>> storyvalue of the gag". The director also had an very experienced >>>>> "VFXcreative_director" helping him with arriving at the right decisions. >>>>> >>>>> Two other tricks to make things more manageable were; >>>>> >>>>> - Approval of shots was always done in context of the edit, and in >>>>> blocks - -no looping shots. The smallest approvable unit were "slates" ie, >>>>> a conversation scene could be 35 cuts/shots but they were edited from >>>>> perhaps 4-5 slates. That made it psychologically easier for the director >>>>> to >>>>> review 5 slates instead of 35 shots. Even the compers worked in "slates" >>>>> as >>>>> the smallest unit (we wrote some software to handle this). >>>>> This might sound like a foolish numbers-game, but it made huge >>>>> difference.. a lot of it was psychological .. like: -"shit.. today I have >>>>> to complete 35 shots" vs "oh.. today I have to complete 5 slates"... BUT >>>>> the whole pipeline was designed to lessen the sheer number of "decision >>>>> points" .. I believe I calculated somewhere around 12000 instances of >>>>> approval counting all assets, shots, moods, etc - that we got down to a >>>>> couple of thousand decisions instead. >>>>> >>>>> - Compositing was done in SCRUMS (google it) to get rid of the >>>>> shot-tracking-problem and artists "shot-angst", so the first version of a >>>>> film was comped in 10 days.. all 1100 shots. >>>>> It looked like crap but all the artists were familiar with their shots >>>>> now. After SCRUM no 2 still no slates were approved (of course - still >>>>> looked crap hehe) but now the director was getting e very good feeling on >>>>> were he wanted to concentrate on moods and story elements. After SCRUM 3 a >>>>> large number of shots, mainly CU and mid shots were tech-approved for >>>>> mattes and roto.. and we have just used 30 work days so far..........etc >>>>> etc.... >>>>> This way of working was first regarded as utter nonsens at first.. but >>>>> when the dirctor and producer could sit down and watch a film in its >>>>> entirety and in a somewhat ok viewable state, after only a little more >>>>> than >>>>> a month.... they got the idea of it. >>>>> Also the artist felt very awkward about ScRuMming in the beginning, >>>>> but quickly adjusted to it and began to enjoy it. :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> //fredd >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:29 AM, Frank Rueter|OHUfx >>>>> <fr...@ohufx.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Totally agree. Just because we are more flexible in post has created >>>>>> a culture of creative micro management that is equivalent to man handling >>>>>> actors on set rather than letting them act >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/21/14, 12:25 PM, matt estela wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 21 March 2014 10:09, Elias Ericsson Rydberg < >>>>>> elias.ericsson.rydb...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> In all kinds of productions there seems to be a heavy reliance on >>>>>>> the director. That's the standard I guess. Should not we, the >>>>>>> vfx-artists, >>>>>>> be the authority of our own domain? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I do wonder if non cg fx heavy films of the past were as reliant on >>>>>> director approval as they are today. Using raiders as the example again, >>>>>> was Spielberg really approving every rock, every mine cart that was >>>>>> created >>>>>> for the mine chase sequence, sending shots back 10, 50, 100 times for >>>>>> revisions? Or as I suspect, was there the simple reality of 'we need to >>>>>> make these things, that takes time, you really can't change much once we >>>>>> start shooting miniatures.'? The ability for digital to change anything >>>>>> and >>>>>> everything is both the best and worst thing that happened to post >>>>>> production. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Nuke-users mailing listnuke-us...@support.thefoundry.co.uk, >>>>>> http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> [image: ohufxLogo 50x50] <http://www.ohufx.com/> *vfx compositing >>>>>> <http://ohufx.com/index.php/vfx-compositing> | workflow customisation and >>>>>> consulting <http://ohufx.com/index.php/vfx-customising> * >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ______________________________________________________ >>>>> *Fredrik Pihl - **visual effects supervisor - **visual effects >>>>> producer* >>>>> *UNITED IMAGE CREATORS AB* >>>>> rönnvägen 11, se-14144 huddinge, sweden >>>>> +46-721 86 58 40 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message is intended only for the >>>>> above-mentioned recipient(s). Its content is confidential. If you have >>>>> received this e-mail by error, please notify us immediately and deleteit >>>>> without making a copy, nor disclosing its content, nor taking anyaction >>>>> based thereon. Thank you. *ツ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nuke-users mailing list >>>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nuke-users mailing list >>> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >>> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Nuke-users mailing list >> Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ >> http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Nuke-users mailing list > Nuke-users@support.thefoundry.co.uk, http://forums.thefoundry.co.uk/ > http://support.thefoundry.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nuke-users >
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