[Winona Online Democracy]
David,
I would disagree with your assumption that the courts derive great pleasure
violating the rights of those who cannot even speak for themselves or hire
an attorney to object to this notion. The courts do not enter into a
controversy unless some person, the government prosecutor, private company
(corporation or partnership or other association), school board, private
citizen or other entity brings a prosecution or private lawsuit that
presents such a question to the court. Most judges do not relish making
tough decisions, and, at least in Minnesota, unrepresented persons are
treated with great care. Attorneys are appointed if there is a criminal
prosecution involved. Cases are presented to the courts. The courts exist
to make decisions (civil and criminal). The appellate courts have issued
many decisions on the invasion of privacy and on the subject of search and
seizure. Trial judges will follow those precedents and their decisions are
subject to appeal. I sometimes disagree with a given decision at any level
of the process, but I would not characterize courts in general as taking
delight in depriving people of their rights.
Other than that comment, I have no quarrel with what you have said. You
would, however, be much more convincing if you would take some of the anger
out of your comments.
----- Original Message -----
From: David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Online Dem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Winona] thoughts on school violence
> [Winona Online Democracy]
>
> I read Chris Nelson's post and have a few reservations about the points
> illustrated.
>
> Most people do not think about the punishment before they commit a
> crime. Therefore, it could be said that the cause for the decline cannot
> be attributed to changing of procedures.
>
> Hiding weapons off campus and shoot at the campus from a point near-by.
> What can a bag search do then? (Remember the shooting that involved the
> eleven to thirteen** year olds that was one or two before Columbine?)
> ** (that is an approximate range of the ages of those involved)
>
> Bag searches... metal detectors... police stations in schools... looks
> more like a prison to me. Imagine WSHS... post persons with rifles on
> the balcony! Well lookie here... it’s a prison now! How can you promote
> learning when it looks more like incarceration. This incarceration
> mentality is the exact reason why US schools are pathetic (according to
> politicians).***
> ***(Read the book, "The Schools Our Children Deserve, Moving Beyond
> Traditional Classrooms and Tougher Standards," by Alfie Kohn. It quite
> thoroughly explains the current method and why it fails versus the
> proven results of a newer method. Contrary to an editorial written by
> Gene Theile claiming it covered only one perspective; I disagree the
> material it covers clearly explains both sides of the coin.)
>
> Has it ever been considered, if the method of instruction were changed
> from the current 'cram the stuff down your throat' or 'test them till
> they drop' to a method that would encourage learning that disciplinary
> problems would evaporate? Disciplinary problems are the direct result of
> material being regarded as irrelevant.
>
> Dismissing all acts as individual seems a bit far-fetched. Kids try to
> be cool and like others continually. Another way to view the copy-cat
> threat could involve something amusingly simple. Lack of a better
> solution in their mind.
>
> Simply, because a court or many courts have ruled a practice to be legal
> does not change how ethical the tactic is. It’s to bad, the courts
> derive such a great pleasure violating the rights of those who cannot
> even speak up for themselves or hire an attorney to object to this
> notion. (Well they can, but society enjoys censuring anyone under the
> age of 30.)
>
> You would accept the invasion of privacy but would your son accept the
> invasion of his privacy? It is easy to say that you would gladly see
> something when it is not your own shirt involved. How about I stop by
> your house to make sure that you are not hoarding any nuclear weapons or
> pirated software? You should gladly welcome the search, after all as the
> advocates of such ridiculous measures say; "You have nothing to hide if
> you are a law abi'ding citizen." I however will conduct no such search
> knowing that you would scream and holler to the police how your rights
> as a citizen is being violated.
>
> It’s too bad the typical administrative attitude toward bullies as I
> have previously observed is a 'sweep it under the rug' approach that is
> no different from the way corporations handle cases of harassment. The
> only things that have changed are a couple of extra words in a book at
> the state capital. (Do not allow yourself to be convinced by their anti
> harassment rhetoric, try reporting it. It will end up the same way as
> before.)
>
> They can teach the constitution in schools but asking for it to be
> enforced fairly and equally for all is another story.
>
> David Dittmann
>
> On Saturday, May 26, 2001, at 12:06 , Chris Nelson wrote:
>
> > In reading Andrew Thompson's latest post I would have to agree with
> > several of his points concerning school violence......however.
> >
> > Could the decline in school related violent crime be attributed to the
> > no nonsense policy that school districts have taken toward violence,
> > bullies, and weapons?
> >
> > Could the drop in the violent crime rates in schools be attributed to
> > the fact some school districts have opted for bag searches, metal
> > detectors, and random locker searches?
> >
> > Could the drop in the violent crime rate in schools also be attributed
> > to school districts making their policy for expulsion well known and
> > what actions on a student's part may get them expelled?
> >
> > All of these issues need to be examined prior to one stating that the
> > acts of violent crime were an anomaly rather than being copy cats.
> >
> > I would have to agree that kids are safer in school than at
> > home....however. Statistics prove that a juvenile is most likely to be
> > a victim of a crime or commit a crime shortly before or immediately
> > after school hours while going to or coming from school. The most
> > dangerous time is within minutes after the final bell of the day.
> >
> > The courts have stated that while children are at school the school
> > administrators and teachers are acting as their parents. The courts
> > have ruled that school administrators only need "reasonable suspicion"
> > to conduct a search of a student, book bag, locker, and in some
> > instances their vehicle (if parked on school property and with
> > notification of the possibility to search). Law enforcement is held to
> > a higher standard of probable cause for most instances.
> >
> > At times people fail to remember that schools are a place of
> > learning......not violence. I would gladly accept any intrusion into
> > my son's liberty to make sure he would be safe. With all of the added
> > pressures of growing up and the fact that some kids (just like
> > some adults) get caught up in emotions rather than in clear thinking we
> > owe our children a safe learning environment free from violence and
> > bullies. I always get a kick out of people when they say "that will
> > never happen in Winona". I just wish they could also look into their
> > crystal ball and tell me the numbers for the Power Ball lottery!!
> >
> > Chris Nelson
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