[Winona Online Democracy]
I just got back from a trip to Toronto and had 40 messages mostly from
online democracy. The primary subject seems to be about the school taking
what it deems as preventive measures to insure that a Columbine event does
not happen in Winona. Many of these same discussions can be read in the
case law about unreasonable searches and seizures. One can glean some
indication of the philosophy that underlies the decisions. Usually
Rehnquist, Scalia, and Thomas come down on the side of the prosecution
deciding that no harm was done by the search. Kennedy and (woman justice)
will usually decide one way one time and another the next time. Ginsberg,
(2 other justices) will usually decide that the search must have been
conducted after a finding of probable cause. You are all very much in tune
with the arguments that are made before the US Supreme Court.
Congratulations to all--especially the students who seem to have a good
grasp of the issues, not that others don't, but it is gratifying to hear
people seeing a reason to prevent unreasonable searches and seizures.
They don't always do harm or insult the person being searched, but the
potential for harm is great enough the our foremothers put it into the bill
of rights in our constitution.
----- Original Message -----
From: andrew thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Winona] an adults perspective of search
> [Winona Online Democracy]
>
> I hardly think it fair to presume I am blaming others for "my failures."
I
> happen to have done fairly well in school, but I know some very bright
> people my age who have not, largely because they encountered at school an
> institution that regarded them as potential criminals and strove wherever
> possible to limit their freedom, deprive them of privacy, and suppress any
> hint of dissent. While I'm generally not the type who needs to enjoy
> something to do it well, others I know had trouble succeeding in an
> environment that sapped their enthusiasm for education and threw up
> obstacles to their attempts at intellectual inquiry and discourse because
> those in charge were afraid of "disruption" and of the Columbine Bogeyman.
> What the administration's policies said to students was, "We are not here
to
> help you learn; we are here to keep you under control for such time as you
> are under our authority." This is not an atmosphere conducive to
education,
> and it ruins the school experience for many otherwise intelligent, able
> students. Calling me immature was, I believe, an unwarranted personal
> attack, and if I have been as condescending to anyone on this list as Ms.
> Olson has been to me here, I sincerely apologize.
>
> In fairness, Ms. Olson, you did write something like "We can either act to
> prevent violence or react to it.", and I felt a need to express my
> observation that we do not need to choose one or the other due to the fact
> that violence will not, in all lkelihood, occur. We have the option of
> focusing our energy on other, more present problems.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> >From: "Joliene Olson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "onlinedemocracy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: [Winona] an adults perspective of search
> >Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:51:06 -0500
> >
> >[Winona Online Democracy]
> >
> >First of all, I didn't intend to respond to the comment that my belief
that
> >"not implementing the policies would result in the occurrence of
violence.
> >That was not my assumption. I just meant that "prevention" is more
> >proactive than waiting for an incident and have to react to it. Whether
we
> >are talking about airports or schools or TV show doesn't matter. I guess
I
> >am more in favor of prevention.
> >
> >I really do have to react however, to Andrew's assertion that a few
> >students
> >didn't "put forth their best effort" because of the "repressive
> >atmosphere". That is really to bad, BUT, there is no promise or
> >guarantee
> >that life is going to be fair. We cannot always choose what happens to
us
> >in life BUT we can choose how we react to it. The measure of maturity
is
> >not blaming others for failures.
> >
> > By the time that you reach your senior year in high school it is hoped
> >that with the counsel of parents, pastors, relatives, friends, coaches,
> >teachers and other mentors, you need to be reaching a maturity level
where
> >someone else is not to blame for everything that happens to you.
> >
> >I know, I know, there are a lot of adults who haven't reached that level
> >either. But I would expect bright, articulate, and well read students
such
> >as your self to be getting closer than some. That is just my experience
> >and perspective for what it is. Thank you
> >Joliene Olson
> >507-454-1236
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "andrew thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 5:33 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Winona] an adults perspective of search
> >
> >
> > > [Winona Online Democracy]
> > >
> > > And Mr.Lanz returns to the assertion that not instituting invasive
> >security
> > > measures will result in violence. Many participating in this
discussion
> >are
> > > framing it as if David, Dan, Dwayne and I (My name doesn't start with
a
> >D;
> >I
> > > feel left out.) had been placing privacy above safety. I can't speak
> >for
> > > others, but my own position is this: If it would prevent violence, I
> > > wouldn't mind being strip-searched in full view of the entire faculty
> >and
> > > student body. The fact is, however, that this will not prevent any
> >violence
> > > because the likelihood of violence would have to exist in the first
> >place
> > > for these school-security measures to prevent it.
> > >
> > > Columbine: I'm sure a majority of people who have had their houses
> >broken
> > > into have installed security systems on their houses or otherwise
acted
> >to
> > > feel more secure, probably sacrificing some convenience and money to
do
> >so.
> > > Burglary happens, and I'm sure those who have been the victims of it
now
> > > regret not putting up more protective equipment beforehand, but since
> >the
> > > particular city my family lives in has a relatively low crime rate and
> >the
> > > likelihood of our house being burglarized is therefore small, the
family
> >has
> > > opted not to make the expense of money, convenience, and comfort that
> > > installing a sophisticated alarm system and putting bars over our
> >windows
> > > would incur, since that expense would be greater than the benefit
> >derived.
> > > In the same way, the cost to the educational system of excessive
> >security
> > > measures in money, staff time, and student enthusiasm is much greater
> >than
> > > the infinitecimal threat of violence it abates, meaning that it fails
> >the
> > > cost-benefit analysis test.
> > >
> > > A great many bad things happen to a great many people, but every
single
> > > incident of misfortune or tragedy should not convince an indivual that
> >he
> >or
> > > she is going to be a victim of that particular catastrophe. One
should
> > > instead examine such incidents as they are reported and then make as
> > > informed as possible a judgement based on all available information as
> >to
> > > how likely one is experience such an event, then take whatever
> >precautions
> > > this conclusion demands. Yes, Columbine was tragic; yes, I hope
nothing
> > > like that happens to me or to anyone; yes, people's lives are more
> >important
> > > than my privacy. However, can we PLEASE be rational about this? My
> >privacy
> > > and someone's survival have never, to my knowledge, been in conflict.
> >My
> > > four-year sentence at WSHS was marked by frequent intrusions and
> > > obstructions put in place by an administration trying to ward off a
> >monster
> > > that did not exist. No one benefitted, other than perhaps any staff
who
> > > might have been paid overtime to remove door handles and repair
cameras,
> >but
> > > many people's lives were made more unpleasant, and I guarantee that at
> >least
> > > a few students who would otherwise have been enthusiastic about school
> >have
> > > been turned off the repressive atmosphere and have consequently not
put
> > > forth the effort needed to derive any significant benefit from going
to
> > > school. The hysteria the media have created around incidents like
those
> >in
> > > Littleton, Springfield, and Santee is destructive to the cause of
> >creating
> >a
> > > better educational system.
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >CC: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Subject: Re: [Winona] an adults perspective of search
> > > >Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 02:25:39 EDT
> > > >
> > > >[Winona Online Democracy]
> > > >
> > > >Mr. Thompson seems to return to his one overriding theme here, that
the
> > > >change of violence happening at any given school is rare and
therefore
> > > >there is little or no need
> > > >for security. I wonder how many students in Littleton, Colorado felt
> >that
> > > >way until one fateful April afternoon in 1999?
> > > >Dean
> > > >
> > > >----------------
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