Could it be around 9pm EET? it's a completely different time but should it be available for everyone?
Michele Il giorno giovedì 1 aprile 2021 alle 16:29:53 UTC+2 Nil ha scritto: > Sure! The place is > > https://meet.jit.si/proto-agi > > the time is > > 10:45am EET > > Unfortunately probably too early if you're in the US. > > Michele, maybe we could do a last minute change to fit the US timezone > as well? With the risk of adding confusion though. > > I'll try to record the call, BTW. > > Nil > > On 4/1/21 5:08 PM, Douglas Miles wrote: > > May I sit in on the meeting as a fly on the wall? > > If so, when/how shall I connect? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > Douglas Miles > > > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 2:52 AM Michele Thiella <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > Hi Nil, > > you're right! currently EET corresponds to the Italian time! > > Great, then I might be a few minutes late because I have a lesson > > first. But surely 10.45am EET can work! > > > > Also for me, no problems for those who want to join! > > Thanks for the PLN link. See you tomorrow. > > > > Michele > > Il giorno mercoledì 31 marzo 2021 alle 14:40:38 UTC+2 Nil ha scritto: > > > > Hi Michele, > > > > On 3/27/21 12:12 PM, Michele Thiella wrote: > > > Is there any recommended book/paper to study before the code > > of PLN rules? > > > > Search for Probabilistic Logic Networks in > > > > > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Background_Publications#Books_Directly_Related_to_OpenCog_AI > > < > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Background_Publications#Books_Directly_Related_to_OpenCog_AI > > > > > > > > > For the meeting, could it be at 11.30am EET? > > > > 11:30am EET works for me. But maybe you mean 10:30am EET. With > > daylight saving time it seems EET corresponds to Italy time. I'm > > not > > sure so double check but anyway 10:30am Italy time works for me. > > > > Nil > > > > > > > > Michele > > > > > > Il giorno venerdì 26 marzo 2021 alle 08:56:11 UTC+1 Nil ha > > scritto: > > > > > > On 3/25/21 9:03 PM, Michele Thiella wrote: > > > > Can I ask you to say something about tree of decisions in Eva? > > > Was it a > > > > separate scheme/python module that analyzed SequentialAnd? > > > > While i'm at it, I can't place some components in your > > architecture: > > > > I read Moshe Looks thesis on MOSES and what I found on > > OpenPsi. > > > But in > > > > practice what were they used for? > > > > > > MOSES is a program learner. In principle it could learn any > > program, in > > > practice it is mostly used to learn multivariable boolean > > functions (as > > > it doesn't work very well on anything else, so far anyway). > > > > > > See for more info > > > > > > > > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search > > > > > > > > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, in practice what does PLN do/have more than URE? > > > > > > The URE is a generic rewriting system, that needs a rule set to > > > operate. > > > > > > See for more info > > > > > > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine> > > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine>> > > > > > > Such rule set can be PLN, which has been specifically > > tailored to > > > handle > > > uncertain reasoning > > > > > > https://github.com/opencog/pln > > <https://github.com/opencog/pln> <https://github.com/opencog/pln > > <https://github.com/opencog/pln>> > > > > > > or the Miner, which is has been tailored to find frequent > > subgraphs > > > > > > https://github.com/opencog/miner > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner> > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner>> > > > > > > or more, though these are the two most used/mature. > > > > > > Nil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before reasoning is possible, one must have a world-model. > > This > > > > model has several parts to it: > > > > * The people in the room, and their 3D coordinates > > > > * The objects on the table and their 3D coordinates. > > > > * The self-model (current position of robot, and of its > > arms, etc.) > > > > The above is updated rapidly, by sensor information. > > > > > > > > Then there is some long-term knowledge: > > > > * The names of everyone who is known. A dictionary linking > > names to > > > > faces. > > > > > > > > Then there is some common-sense knowledge: > > > > * you can talk to people, > > > > * you can pick up bottles on a table > > > > * you cannot talk to bottles > > > > * you cannot pick up people. > > > > * bottles can be picked up with the arm. > > > > * facial expressions and arm movements can be used to > > communicate > > > > with people. > > > > > > > > The world model needs to represent all of this. It also > > needs to > > > > store all of the above in a representation that is > > accessible to > > > > natural language, so that it can talk about the position of > > its arm, > > > > the location of the bottle, and the name of the person it is > > > talking to. > > > > > > > > Reasoning is possible only *after* all of the above has been > > > > satisfied, not before. Attempts to do reasoning before the > > above > > > > has been built will always come up short, because some > > important > > > > piece of information will be missing, or will be stored > > somewhere, > > > > in some format that the reasoning system does not have > > access to it. > > > > > > > > The point here is that people have been building "reasoning > > systems" > > > > for the last 30 or 40 years. They are always frail and > > fragile. They > > > > are always missing key information. I think it is > > important to try > > > > to understand how to represent information in a uniform > > manner, so > > > > that reasoning does not stumble. > > > > > > > > > > > > Atomspace: > > > > > > > > Concepts: "name" - "3D pose" > > > > - bottle - Na > > > > - table - Na > > > > (Predicate: "over" List ("bottle") ("table")) > > > > Actions: > > > > - Go random > > > > - Go to coord > > > > - Grab obj > > > > > > > > Goal: (bottle in hand) // = grab bottle > > > > > > > > Inference rules: all the necessary rules, i.e. > > > > * grab-rule: preconditions: (robot-coord = obj-coord) ..., > > > > effects: (obj in hand) ... > > > > * coord-rule: if x is in "coord1" and y is over x then y is in > > > > "coord1" > > > > > > > > -> So, robot try backward chaining to find the behavior > > tree to > > > > run. It doesn't find it, it lacks knowledge, it doesn't know > > > > where the bottle is (let's leave out partial trees). > > > > -> Go random ... > > > > -> Vision sensor recognizes table > > > > -> atomspace update: table in coord (1,1,1) > > > > -> forward chaining -> bottle in coord (1,1,1) > > > > -> backward chaining finds a tree, that is > > > > Go to coord (1,1,1) + Grap obj > > > > -> goal achieved > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a more-or-less textbook robotics homework > > assignment. It has > > > > certainly been solved in many different ways by many different > > > > people using many different technologies, over the last > > 40-60 years. > > > > Algorithms like A-star search are one of the research > > results of > > > > trying to solve the above. The AtomSpace would be a horrible > > > > technology to solve the above problem, its too slow, too > > bulky, too > > > > complicated. > > > > > > > > The chaining steps can be called "inference", but it is > > inference > > > > devoid of natural language, devoid of "true understanding". > > My goal > > > > is to have a conversation with the robot: > > > > > > > > "What do you see?" > > > > "A bottle" > > > > "where is it?" > > > > "on the table" > > > > "can you reach it?" > > > > "no" > > > > "could you reach it if you move to a different place?" > > > > "yes" > > > > "where would you move?" > > > > "closer to the bottle" > > > > "can you please move closer to the bottle?" > > > > (robot moves) > > > > > > > > > > > > This is now clear to me, but why natural language? > > > > if i didn't want interactions with humans could i do it > > differently? > > > > A certain variation of the sensor values already represents > > "the > > > forward > > > > movement", I do not need to associate a name with it if I > > don't > > > speak, > > > > also for the Atom "bottle" I could use its ID instead. > > > > I don't understand why removing natural language implies > > having an > > > > inference devoid of "true understanding". > > > > > > > > Stupid example: If I speak Italian with a French, neither > > of us > > > > understands the other. But a bottle remains a bottle for > > both and > > > if I > > > > give him my hand he will probably do it too ... or he will > > leave > > > without > > > > saying goodbye. > > > > > > > > I'm probably missing something big, but until I don't bang > > my head > > > > against it, I don't see. > > > > > > > > > > > > This can be solved by carefully hand-crafting a chatbot > > dialog tree. > > > > (The ghost chatbot system in opencog was designed to allow > > such > > > > dialog trees to be created) Over the decades, many chatbots > > have > > > > been written. Again: there are common problems: > > > > > > > > -- the text is hard-coded, and not linguistic. Minor > > changes in > > > > wording cause the chatbot to get confused. > > > > -- there is no world-model, or it is ad hoc and scattered > > over many > > > > places > > > > -- no ability to perform reasoning > > > > -- no memory of the dialog ("what were we talking about?" - > > well, > > > > chatbots do have a one-word "topic" variable, so the > > chatbot can > > > > answer "we are talking about baseball", but that's it. > > There is no > > > > "world model" of the conversation, and no "world model" of > > who the > > > > conversation was with ("On Sunday, I talked to John about a > > bottle > > > > on a table and how to grasp it") > > > > > > > > Note that ghost has all of the above problems. It's not > > linguistic, > > > > it has no world-model, it has no defined representation > > that can be > > > > reasoned over, and it has no memory. > > > > > > > > 20 years ago, it was hard to build a robot that could grasp a > > > > bottle. It was hard to create a good chatbot. > > > > > > > > What is the state of the art, today? Well, Tesla has > > self-driving > > > > cars, and Amazon and Apple have chatbots that are very > > > > sophisticated. There is no open source for any of this, > > and there > > > > are no open standards, so if you are a university grad > > student (or a > > > > university professor) it is still very very hard to build a > > robot > > > > that can grasp a bottle, or a robot that you can talk to. > > And yet, > > > > these basic tasks have become "engineering"; they are no > > longer > > > > "science". The science resides at a more abstract level. > > > > > > > > --linas > > > > > > > > > > > > I find the abstract level incredible, both in terms of > > beauty and > > > > difficulty! > > > > > > > > Michele > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > Google > > > > Groups "opencog" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails > > from it, > > > send > > > > an email to [email protected] > > > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > > > > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > >>>. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > Google > > > Groups "opencog" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from > > it, send > > > an email to [email protected] > > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/f8d77746-4855-491d-bf65-4bc73d45ca39n%40googlegroups.com > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/f8d77746-4855-491d-bf65-4bc73d45ca39n%40googlegroups.com > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/f8d77746-4855-491d-bf65-4bc73d45ca39n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/f8d77746-4855-491d-bf65-4bc73d45ca39n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > >>. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "opencog" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > > send an email to [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/c1d4319f-70de-4cda-a6e5-a91c8dd53946n%40googlegroups.com > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/c1d4319f-70de-4cda-a6e5-a91c8dd53946n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > >. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "opencog" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > an email to [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAER3M5%3D1%2B7jNyXa6zjcoWf8qJ%2BVWkjjZ_x_V%3Dbmp8QrhUVHNTw%40mail.gmail.com > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAER3M5%3D1%2B7jNyXa6zjcoWf8qJ%2BVWkjjZ_x_V%3Dbmp8QrhUVHNTw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > >. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. 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