yes, the website i linked to is incorrect, sorry about that! On Friday, April 2, 2021 at 2:07:14 PM UTC-4 Dave Xanatos wrote:
> Looks like it is 3pm EDT, fyi. See you then 😊 > > > > *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of > *Michael > Duncan > *Sent:* Friday, April 2, 2021 10:09 AM > *To:* opencog <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: AGI & Robotics & Sophia [was Re: New user [was Re: > [opencog-dev] Problem in atom deletion from postgreSQL > > > > it looks like 2pm edt, i'll be there! > > https://time.is/EET > > > > > > On Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 3:55:12 PM UTC-4 Nil wrote: > > Alright, so the time is > > Friday 2 Apr, 9pm EET (3pm EDT, if I'm correct) > > and the place is > > https://meet.jit.si/proto-agi > > Everybody is invited. > > Nil > > On 4/1/21 9:27 PM, Michele Thiella wrote: > > 25.5 from now, i hope :) > > > > Il giorno giovedì 1 aprile 2021 alle 19:29:39 UTC+2 [email protected] > ha > > scritto: > > > > 9pm EET works for me.. is that 1.5 hours from now or 25.5 hours > > from now? > > > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 8:19 AM Michele Thiella <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > Could it be around 9pm EET? > > it's a completely different time but should it be available for > > everyone? > > > > Michele > > Il giorno giovedì 1 aprile 2021 alle 16:29:53 UTC+2 Nil ha scritto: > > > > Sure! The place is > > > > https://meet.jit.si/proto-agi <https://meet.jit.si/proto-agi> > > > > the time is > > > > 10:45am EET > > > > Unfortunately probably too early if you're in the US. > > > > Michele, maybe we could do a last minute change to fit the > > US timezone > > as well? With the risk of adding confusion though. > > > > I'll try to record the call, BTW. > > > > Nil > > > > On 4/1/21 5:08 PM, Douglas Miles wrote: > > > May I sit in on the meeting as a fly on the wall? > > > If so, when/how shall I connect? > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > Douglas Miles > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 2:52 AM Michele Thiella > > <[email protected] > > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Nil, > > > you're right! currently EET corresponds to the Italian time! > > > Great, then I might be a few minutes late because I have > > a lesson > > > first. But surely 10.45am EET can work! > > > > > > Also for me, no problems for those who want to join! > > > Thanks for the PLN link. See you tomorrow. > > > > > > Michele > > > Il giorno mercoledì 31 marzo 2021 alle 14:40:38 UTC+2 Nil > > ha scritto: > > > > > > Hi Michele, > > > > > > On 3/27/21 12:12 PM, Michele Thiella wrote: > > > > Is there any recommended book/paper to study before the > > code > > > of PLN rules? > > > > > > Search for Probabilistic Logic Networks in > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Background_Publications#Books_Directly_Related_to_OpenCog_AI > > > < > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Background_Publications#Books_Directly_Related_to_OpenCog_AI> > > > > > > > > > < > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Background_Publications#Books_Directly_Related_to_OpenCog_AI > > > < > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Background_Publications#Books_Directly_Related_to_OpenCog_AI>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the meeting, could it be at 11.30am EET? > > > > > > 11:30am EET works for me. But maybe you mean 10:30am EET. > > With > > > daylight saving time it seems EET corresponds to Italy > > time. I'm > > > not > > > sure so double check but anyway 10:30am Italy time works > > for me. > > > > > > Nil > > > > > > > > > > > Michele > > > > > > > > Il giorno venerdì 26 marzo 2021 alle 08:56:11 UTC+1 Nil ha > > > scritto: > > > > > > > > On 3/25/21 9:03 PM, Michele Thiella wrote: > > > > > Can I ask you to say something about tree of > > decisions in Eva? > > > > Was it a > > > > > separate scheme/python module that analyzed > > SequentialAnd? > > > > > While i'm at it, I can't place some components in your > > > architecture: > > > > > I read Moshe Looks thesis on MOSES and what I found on > > > OpenPsi. > > > > But in > > > > > practice what were they used for? > > > > > > > > MOSES is a program learner. In principle it could learn > > any > > > program, in > > > > practice it is mostly used to learn multivariable boolean > > > functions (as > > > > it doesn't work very well on anything else, so far > > anyway). > > > > > > > > See for more info > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search> > > > > > > > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search> > > > > > > > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, in practice what does PLN do/have more than > > URE? > > > > > > > > The URE is a generic rewriting system, that needs a > > rule set to > > > > operate. > > > > > > > > See for more info > > > > > > > > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine> > > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine>> > > > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine> > > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine>>> > > > > > > > > Such rule set can be PLN, which has been specifically > > > tailored to > > > > handle > > > > uncertain reasoning > > > > > > > > https://github.com/opencog/pln > > <https://github.com/opencog/pln> > > > <https://github.com/opencog/pln > > <https://github.com/opencog/pln>> > > <https://github.com/opencog/pln > > <https://github.com/opencog/pln> > > > <https://github.com/opencog/pln > > <https://github.com/opencog/pln>>> > > > > > > > > or the Miner, which is has been tailored to find frequent > > > subgraphs > > > > > > > > https://github.com/opencog/miner > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner> > > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner>> > > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner> > > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner > > <https://github.com/opencog/miner>>> > > > > > > > > or more, though these are the two most used/mature. > > > > > > > > Nil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before reasoning is possible, one must have a > > world-model. > > > This > > > > > model has several parts to it: > > > > > * The people in the room, and their 3D coordinates > > > > > * The objects on the table and their 3D coordinates. > > > > > * The self-model (current position of robot, and of its > > > arms, etc.) > > > > > The above is updated rapidly, by sensor information. > > > > > > > > > > Then there is some long-term knowledge: > > > > > * The names of everyone who is known. A dictionary > > linking > > > names to > > > > > faces. > > > > > > > > > > Then there is some common-sense knowledge: > > > > > * you can talk to people, > > > > > * you can pick up bottles on a table > > > > > * you cannot talk to bottles > > > > > * you cannot pick up people. > > > > > * bottles can be picked up with the arm. > > > > > * facial expressions and arm movements can be used to > > > communicate > > > > > with people. > > > > > > > > > > The world model needs to represent all of this. It also > > > needs to > > > > > store all of the above in a representation that is > > > accessible to > > > > > natural language, so that it can talk about the > > position of > > > its arm, > > > > > the location of the bottle, and the name of the > > person it is > > > > talking to. > > > > > > > > > > Reasoning is possible only *after* all of the above > > has been > > > > > satisfied, not before. Attempts to do reasoning > > before the > > > above > > > > > has been built will always come up short, because some > > > important > > > > > piece of information will be missing, or will be stored > > > somewhere, > > > > > in some format that the reasoning system does not have > > > access to it. > > > > > > > > > > The point here is that people have been building > > "reasoning > > > systems" > > > > > for the last 30 or 40 years. They are always frail and > > > fragile. They > > > > > are always missing key information. I think it is > > > important to try > > > > > to understand how to represent information in a uniform > > > manner, so > > > > > that reasoning does not stumble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Atomspace: > > > > > > > > > > Concepts: "name" - "3D pose" > > > > > - bottle - Na > > > > > - table - Na > > > > > (Predicate: "over" List ("bottle") ("table")) > > > > > Actions: > > > > > - Go random > > > > > - Go to coord > > > > > - Grab obj > > > > > > > > > > Goal: (bottle in hand) // = grab bottle > > > > > > > > > > Inference rules: all the necessary rules, i.e. > > > > > * grab-rule: preconditions: (robot-coord = obj-coord) > > ..., > > > > > effects: (obj in hand) ... > > > > > * coord-rule: if x is in "coord1" and y is over x > > then y is in > > > > > "coord1" > > > > > > > > > > -> So, robot try backward chaining to find the behavior > > > tree to > > > > > run. It doesn't find it, it lacks knowledge, it > > doesn't know > > > > > where the bottle is (let's leave out partial trees). > > > > > -> Go random ... > > > > > -> Vision sensor recognizes table > > > > > -> atomspace update: table in coord (1,1,1) > > > > > -> forward chaining -> bottle in coord (1,1,1) > > > > > -> backward chaining finds a tree, that is > > > > > Go to coord (1,1,1) + Grap obj > > > > > -> goal achieved > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a more-or-less textbook robotics homework > > > assignment. It has > > > > > certainly been solved in many different ways by many > > different > > > > > people using many different technologies, over the last > > > 40-60 years. > > > > > Algorithms like A-star search are one of the research > > > results of > > > > > trying to solve the above. The AtomSpace would be a > > horrible > > > > > technology to solve the above problem, its too slow, too > > > bulky, too > > > > > complicated. > > > > > > > > > > The chaining steps can be called "inference", but it is > > > inference > > > > > devoid of natural language, devoid of "true > > understanding". > > > My goal > > > > > is to have a conversation with the robot: > > > > > > > > > > "What do you see?" > > > > > "A bottle" > > > > > "where is it?" > > > > > "on the table" > > > > > "can you reach it?" > > > > > "no" > > > > > "could you reach it if you move to a different place?" > > > > > "yes" > > > > > "where would you move?" > > > > > "closer to the bottle" > > > > > "can you please move closer to the bottle?" > > > > > (robot moves) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is now clear to me, but why natural language? > > > > > if i didn't want interactions with humans could i do it > > > differently? > > > > > A certain variation of the sensor values already > > represents > > > "the > > > > forward > > > > > movement", I do not need to associate a name with it > > if I > > > don't > > > > speak, > > > > > also for the Atom "bottle" I could use its ID instead. > > > > > I don't understand why removing natural language implies > > > having an > > > > > inference devoid of "true understanding". > > > > > > > > > > Stupid example: If I speak Italian with a French, > > neither > > > of us > > > > > understands the other. But a bottle remains a bottle for > > > both and > > > > if I > > > > > give him my hand he will probably do it too ... or he > > will > > > leave > > > > without > > > > > saying goodbye. > > > > > > > > > > I'm probably missing something big, but until I don't > > bang > > > my head > > > > > against it, I don't see. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This can be solved by carefully hand-crafting a chatbot > > > dialog tree. > > > > > (The ghost chatbot system in opencog was designed to > > allow > > > such > > > > > dialog trees to be created) Over the decades, many > > chatbots > > > have > > > > > been written. Again: there are common problems: > > > > > > > > > > -- the text is hard-coded, and not linguistic. Minor > > > changes in > > > > > wording cause the chatbot to get confused. > > > > > -- there is no world-model, or it is ad hoc and > > scattered > > > over many > > > > > places > > > > > -- no ability to perform reasoning > > > > > -- no memory of the dialog ("what were we talking > > about?" - > > > well, > > > > > chatbots do have a one-word "topic" variable, so the > > > chatbot can > > > > > answer "we are talking about baseball", but that's it. > > > There is no > > > > > "world model" of the conversation, and no "world > > model" of > > > who the > > > > > conversation was with ("On Sunday, I talked to John > > about a > > > bottle > > > > > on a table and how to grasp it") > > > > > > > > > > Note that ghost has all of the above problems. It's not > > > linguistic, > > > > > it has no world-model, it has no defined representation > > > that can be > > > > > reasoned over, and it has no memory. > > > > > > > > > > 20 years ago, it was hard to build a robot that could > > grasp a > > > > > bottle. It was hard to create a good chatbot. > > > > > > > > > > What is the state of the art, today? Well, Tesla has > > > self-driving > > > > > cars, and Amazon and Apple have chatbots that are very > > > > > sophisticated. There is no open source for any of this, > > > and there > > > > > are no open standards, so if you are a university grad > > > student (or a > > > > > university professor) it is still very very hard to > > build a > > > robot > > > > > that can grasp a bottle, or a robot that you can talk > > to. > > > And yet, > > > > > these basic tasks have become "engineering"; they are no > > > longer > > > > > "science". The science resides at a more abstract > > level. > > > > > > > > > > --linas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find the abstract level incredible, both in terms of > > > beauty and > > > > > difficulty! > > > > > > > > > > Michele > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed > > to the > > > Google > > > > > Groups "opencog" group. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails > > > from it, > > > > send > > > > > an email to [email protected] > > > > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com> > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com> > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > > > > > > > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > > > < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are 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