25.5 from now, i hope :) Il giorno giovedì 1 aprile 2021 alle 19:29:39 UTC+2 [email protected] ha scritto:
> 9pm EET works for me.. is that 1.5 hours from now or 25.5 hours from now? > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 8:19 AM Michele Thiella <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Could it be around 9pm EET? >> it's a completely different time but should it be available for everyone? >> >> Michele >> Il giorno giovedì 1 aprile 2021 alle 16:29:53 UTC+2 Nil ha scritto: >> >>> Sure! The place is >>> >>> https://meet.jit.si/proto-agi >>> >>> the time is >>> >>> 10:45am EET >>> >>> Unfortunately probably too early if you're in the US. >>> >>> Michele, maybe we could do a last minute change to fit the US timezone >>> as well? With the risk of adding confusion though. >>> >>> I'll try to record the call, BTW. >>> >>> Nil >>> >>> On 4/1/21 5:08 PM, Douglas Miles wrote: >>> > May I sit in on the meeting as a fly on the wall? >>> > If so, when/how shall I connect? >>> > >>> > Thanks in advance! >>> > Douglas Miles >>> > >>> > On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 2:52 AM Michele Thiella <[email protected] >>> > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Nil, >>> > you're right! currently EET corresponds to the Italian time! >>> > Great, then I might be a few minutes late because I have a lesson >>> > first. But surely 10.45am EET can work! >>> > >>> > Also for me, no problems for those who want to join! >>> > Thanks for the PLN link. See you tomorrow. >>> > >>> > Michele >>> > Il giorno mercoledì 31 marzo 2021 alle 14:40:38 UTC+2 Nil ha scritto: >>> > >>> > Hi Michele, >>> > >>> > On 3/27/21 12:12 PM, Michele Thiella wrote: >>> > > Is there any recommended book/paper to study before the code >>> > of PLN rules? >>> > >>> > Search for Probabilistic Logic Networks in >>> > >>> > >>> https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Background_Publications#Books_Directly_Related_to_OpenCog_AI >>> >>> > < >>> https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Background_Publications#Books_Directly_Related_to_OpenCog_AI> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > > For the meeting, could it be at 11.30am EET? >>> > >>> > 11:30am EET works for me. But maybe you mean 10:30am EET. With >>> > daylight saving time it seems EET corresponds to Italy time. I'm >>> > not >>> > sure so double check but anyway 10:30am Italy time works for me. >>> > >>> > Nil >>> > >>> > > >>> > > Michele >>> > > >>> > > Il giorno venerdì 26 marzo 2021 alle 08:56:11 UTC+1 Nil ha >>> > scritto: >>> > > >>> > > On 3/25/21 9:03 PM, Michele Thiella wrote: >>> > > > Can I ask you to say something about tree of decisions in Eva? >>> > > Was it a >>> > > > separate scheme/python module that analyzed SequentialAnd? >>> > > > While i'm at it, I can't place some components in your >>> > architecture: >>> > > > I read Moshe Looks thesis on MOSES and what I found on >>> > OpenPsi. >>> > > But in >>> > > > practice what were they used for? >>> > > >>> > > MOSES is a program learner. In principle it could learn any >>> > program, in >>> > > practice it is mostly used to learn multivariable boolean >>> > functions (as >>> > > it doesn't work very well on anything else, so far anyway). >>> > > >>> > > See for more info >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search >>> > < >>> https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > < >>> https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search >>> > < >>> https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > Finally, in practice what does PLN do/have more than URE? >>> > > >>> > > The URE is a generic rewriting system, that needs a rule set to >>> > > operate. >>> > > >>> > > See for more info >>> > > >>> > > https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine >>> > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine> >>> > > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine >>> > <https://wiki.opencog.org/w/Unified_rule_engine>> >>> > > >>> > > Such rule set can be PLN, which has been specifically >>> > tailored to >>> > > handle >>> > > uncertain reasoning >>> > > >>> > > https://github.com/opencog/pln >>> > <https://github.com/opencog/pln> <https://github.com/opencog/pln >>> > <https://github.com/opencog/pln>> >>> > > >>> > > or the Miner, which is has been tailored to find frequent >>> > subgraphs >>> > > >>> > > https://github.com/opencog/miner >>> > <https://github.com/opencog/miner> >>> > <https://github.com/opencog/miner >>> > <https://github.com/opencog/miner>> >>> > > >>> > > or more, though these are the two most used/mature. >>> > > >>> > > Nil >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > Before reasoning is possible, one must have a world-model. >>> > This >>> > > > model has several parts to it: >>> > > > * The people in the room, and their 3D coordinates >>> > > > * The objects on the table and their 3D coordinates. >>> > > > * The self-model (current position of robot, and of its >>> > arms, etc.) >>> > > > The above is updated rapidly, by sensor information. >>> > > > >>> > > > Then there is some long-term knowledge: >>> > > > * The names of everyone who is known. A dictionary linking >>> > names to >>> > > > faces. >>> > > > >>> > > > Then there is some common-sense knowledge: >>> > > > * you can talk to people, >>> > > > * you can pick up bottles on a table >>> > > > * you cannot talk to bottles >>> > > > * you cannot pick up people. >>> > > > * bottles can be picked up with the arm. >>> > > > * facial expressions and arm movements can be used to >>> > communicate >>> > > > with people. >>> > > > >>> > > > The world model needs to represent all of this. It also >>> > needs to >>> > > > store all of the above in a representation that is >>> > accessible to >>> > > > natural language, so that it can talk about the position of >>> > its arm, >>> > > > the location of the bottle, and the name of the person it is >>> > > talking to. >>> > > > >>> > > > Reasoning is possible only *after* all of the above has been >>> > > > satisfied, not before. Attempts to do reasoning before the >>> > above >>> > > > has been built will always come up short, because some >>> > important >>> > > > piece of information will be missing, or will be stored >>> > somewhere, >>> > > > in some format that the reasoning system does not have >>> > access to it. >>> > > > >>> > > > The point here is that people have been building "reasoning >>> > systems" >>> > > > for the last 30 or 40 years. They are always frail and >>> > fragile. They >>> > > > are always missing key information. I think it is >>> > important to try >>> > > > to understand how to represent information in a uniform >>> > manner, so >>> > > > that reasoning does not stumble. >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > Atomspace: >>> > > > >>> > > > Concepts: "name" - "3D pose" >>> > > > - bottle - Na >>> > > > - table - Na >>> > > > (Predicate: "over" List ("bottle") ("table")) >>> > > > Actions: >>> > > > - Go random >>> > > > - Go to coord >>> > > > - Grab obj >>> > > > >>> > > > Goal: (bottle in hand) // = grab bottle >>> > > > >>> > > > Inference rules: all the necessary rules, i.e. >>> > > > * grab-rule: preconditions: (robot-coord = obj-coord) ..., >>> > > > effects: (obj in hand) ... >>> > > > * coord-rule: if x is in "coord1" and y is over x then y is in >>> > > > "coord1" >>> > > > >>> > > > -> So, robot try backward chaining to find the behavior >>> > tree to >>> > > > run. It doesn't find it, it lacks knowledge, it doesn't know >>> > > > where the bottle is (let's leave out partial trees). >>> > > > -> Go random ... >>> > > > -> Vision sensor recognizes table >>> > > > -> atomspace update: table in coord (1,1,1) >>> > > > -> forward chaining -> bottle in coord (1,1,1) >>> > > > -> backward chaining finds a tree, that is >>> > > > Go to coord (1,1,1) + Grap obj >>> > > > -> goal achieved >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > This is a more-or-less textbook robotics homework >>> > assignment. It has >>> > > > certainly been solved in many different ways by many different >>> > > > people using many different technologies, over the last >>> > 40-60 years. >>> > > > Algorithms like A-star search are one of the research >>> > results of >>> > > > trying to solve the above. The AtomSpace would be a horrible >>> > > > technology to solve the above problem, its too slow, too >>> > bulky, too >>> > > > complicated. >>> > > > >>> > > > The chaining steps can be called "inference", but it is >>> > inference >>> > > > devoid of natural language, devoid of "true understanding". >>> > My goal >>> > > > is to have a conversation with the robot: >>> > > > >>> > > > "What do you see?" >>> > > > "A bottle" >>> > > > "where is it?" >>> > > > "on the table" >>> > > > "can you reach it?" >>> > > > "no" >>> > > > "could you reach it if you move to a different place?" >>> > > > "yes" >>> > > > "where would you move?" >>> > > > "closer to the bottle" >>> > > > "can you please move closer to the bottle?" >>> > > > (robot moves) >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > This is now clear to me, but why natural language? >>> > > > if i didn't want interactions with humans could i do it >>> > differently? >>> > > > A certain variation of the sensor values already represents >>> > "the >>> > > forward >>> > > > movement", I do not need to associate a name with it if I >>> > don't >>> > > speak, >>> > > > also for the Atom "bottle" I could use its ID instead. >>> > > > I don't understand why removing natural language implies >>> > having an >>> > > > inference devoid of "true understanding". >>> > > > >>> > > > Stupid example: If I speak Italian with a French, neither >>> > of us >>> > > > understands the other. But a bottle remains a bottle for >>> > both and >>> > > if I >>> > > > give him my hand he will probably do it too ... or he will >>> > leave >>> > > without >>> > > > saying goodbye. >>> > > > >>> > > > I'm probably missing something big, but until I don't bang >>> > my head >>> > > > against it, I don't see. >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > This can be solved by carefully hand-crafting a chatbot >>> > dialog tree. >>> > > > (The ghost chatbot system in opencog was designed to allow >>> > such >>> > > > dialog trees to be created) Over the decades, many chatbots >>> > have >>> > > > been written. Again: there are common problems: >>> > > > >>> > > > -- the text is hard-coded, and not linguistic. Minor >>> > changes in >>> > > > wording cause the chatbot to get confused. >>> > > > -- there is no world-model, or it is ad hoc and scattered >>> > over many >>> > > > places >>> > > > -- no ability to perform reasoning >>> > > > -- no memory of the dialog ("what were we talking about?" - >>> > well, >>> > > > chatbots do have a one-word "topic" variable, so the >>> > chatbot can >>> > > > answer "we are talking about baseball", but that's it. >>> > There is no >>> > > > "world model" of the conversation, and no "world model" of >>> > who the >>> > > > conversation was with ("On Sunday, I talked to John about a >>> > bottle >>> > > > on a table and how to grasp it") >>> > > > >>> > > > Note that ghost has all of the above problems. It's not >>> > linguistic, >>> > > > it has no world-model, it has no defined representation >>> > that can be >>> > > > reasoned over, and it has no memory. >>> > > > >>> > > > 20 years ago, it was hard to build a robot that could grasp a >>> > > > bottle. It was hard to create a good chatbot. >>> > > > >>> > > > What is the state of the art, today? Well, Tesla has >>> > self-driving >>> > > > cars, and Amazon and Apple have chatbots that are very >>> > > > sophisticated. There is no open source for any of this, >>> > and there >>> > > > are no open standards, so if you are a university grad >>> > student (or a >>> > > > university professor) it is still very very hard to build a >>> > robot >>> > > > that can grasp a bottle, or a robot that you can talk to. >>> > And yet, >>> > > > these basic tasks have become "engineering"; they are no >>> > longer >>> > > > "science". The science resides at a more abstract level. >>> > > > >>> > > > --linas >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > I find the abstract level incredible, both in terms of >>> > beauty and >>> > > > difficulty! >>> > > > >>> > > > Michele >>> > > > >>> > > > -- >>> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>> > Google >>> > > > Groups "opencog" group. >>> > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>> > from it, >>> > > send >>> > > > an email to [email protected] >>> > > > <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>> >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>> >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/5ac81cf1-c4cd-40cd-9438-55d8dc3d95f5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>. >>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>> > Google >>> > > Groups "opencog" group. >>> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>> > it, send >>> > > an email to [email protected] >>> > > <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> > > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > > >>> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/f8d77746-4855-491d-bf65-4bc73d45ca39n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/f8d77746-4855-491d-bf65-4bc73d45ca39n%40googlegroups.com> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/f8d77746-4855-491d-bf65-4bc73d45ca39n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >>> >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/f8d77746-4855-491d-bf65-4bc73d45ca39n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>. >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups "opencog" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>> > send an email to [email protected] >>> > <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/c1d4319f-70de-4cda-a6e5-a91c8dd53946n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/c1d4319f-70de-4cda-a6e5-a91c8dd53946n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>> >>> >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups "opencog" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> > an email to [email protected] >>> > <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAER3M5%3D1%2B7jNyXa6zjcoWf8qJ%2BVWkjjZ_x_V%3Dbmp8QrhUVHNTw%40mail.gmail.com >>> >>> > < >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAER3M5%3D1%2B7jNyXa6zjcoWf8qJ%2BVWkjjZ_x_V%3Dbmp8QrhUVHNTw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "opencog" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/a2120141-b415-41f7-8b29-c7cba23db310n%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/a2120141-b415-41f7-8b29-c7cba23db310n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. 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