Hi all, I found some time to play with a certain example exploring the original visualization idea. This <http://ocog.atspace.cc/> is how the inference browser would look like. Provided example is sort of burnt into the page, and it serves only as an idea evaluation prototype. But once the app would be finished, It would probably be of a php kind, accepting as a parameter a JSON file containing an inference tree to be browsed.
Before continuing, I have to ask, would there be any use of it, and would there be a space for this cutie to be a part of OpenCog? And if so, how would it be finally integrated with the OpenCog system? All well, ivan pet, 23. srp 2021. u 14:44 Ivan V. <[email protected]> napisao je: > this is very cool, ivan! two suggestions would be to indicate on the >> ovals with a tick mark where the off-screen nodes are to guide navigation, >> and a permanent slider/[+,-] buttons for global zoom control. (i know >> these are obvious) > > > Thank you, Michael, for the kind words. About the tick mark, orbiting > ovals may be dragged around the central oval to navigate horizontally the > inference tree. About the zooming, orbiting ovals are zoomed in by dragging > them into the central area and zoomed out by dragging them outside the > central area. We should probably include a quick instructions button > regarding this subject. > > About the inference histories, I decided not to wait for them (people may > be on vacation or maybe even uninterested in indulging my requests) . > Instead, I decided to make an inference engine agnostic environment. I have > in mind something like passing a JSON file consisting of input s-expression > connected to specific output inference steps for specific s-expression > parts. Knowing that new Atomspace versions may be coming, I'd like to leave > the support option open. I believe that the mentioned JSON input would work > well enough with the incoming versions. > > peace, > ivan > > čet, 22. srp 2021. u 00:09 Michael Duncan <[email protected]> napisao > je: > >> this is very cool, ivan! two suggestions would be to indicate on the >> ovals with a tick mark where the off-screen nodes are to guide navigation, >> and a permanent slider/[+,-] buttons for global zoom control. (i know >> these are obvious) >> >> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 7:15:09 AM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote: >> >>> While waiting for inference histories, I'm developing an idea about >>> turning the inference visualizer into an interactive AtomSpace debugger: >>> http://ocog.atspace.cc/. >>> >>> pon, 12. srp 2021. u 21:43 Ivan V. <[email protected]> napisao je: >>> >>>> Great, I'm glad you are interested in an experiment. >>>> >>>> A reasonable step would be for Nil to send you some real PLN and URE >>>>> inference histories and see what your visualizer does with them... >>>>> >>>> >>>> Sure, JSON history files would be perfect (we could make this a >>>> standard communication pipe between reasoner and visualizer), but I guess I >>>> can somehow manage any existing format you are already used to. You know my >>>> mail. >>>> >>>> Currently, the library is AJAX-ing an XML tree structure and standard >>>> HTMLs as input, with possibility of using php or other server side >>>> scripting technology to interface the input files you pass over here. Would >>>> that be ok? I have to mention, with some additional effort, there could be >>>> other input options such as reading and evaluating JSON file wrapped into >>>> javascript source code file. I'm telling this because this would exclude >>>> the requirement of running a HTTP and php server, but if it is not >>>> necessary, I'd like to avoid this step and do the php trick. >>>> >>>> pon, 12. srp 2021. u 20:30 Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> napisao je: >>>> >>>>> A reasonable step would be for Nil to send you some real PLN and URE >>>>> inference histories and see what your visualizer does with them... >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 12, 2021, 10:59 AM Ivan V. <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I made a small infinity test <http://ocog.atspace.cc/infinite/> too. >>>>>> Each parent virtually has an infinite number of children. Rolling ovals >>>>>> around, zooming ovals in, zooming ovals out, ... Surely it's not exactly >>>>>> perfect, but I could live with it. >>>>>> >>>>>> pon, 12. srp 2021. u 17:48 Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> >>>>>> napisao je: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Ivan, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 6:00 AM Ivan V. <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for asking, and my thoughts are pretty obvious. As I >>>>>>>> understand, URE and PLN are all about proofs, so my thoughts may go in >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> direction. Suppose we have a natural deduction proof composition: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- I >>>>>>>> J K L M N P Q R ----------------- >>>>>>>> ----------------- ----------------- A B >>>>>>>> C----------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> X* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can already see the tree-like composition, but as it may span >>>>>>>> over a very wide and tall area, it may be required to represent it >>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>> an on-demand scaling system. This example <http://ocog.atspace.cc/> >>>>>>>> roughly shows what I have imagined for proof representation. In the >>>>>>>> example >>>>>>>> you can play with ovals, dragging them around and in or out the central >>>>>>>> area, zooming proof parts of the current interest. Notice how it is >>>>>>>> possible to represent and navigate nearly infinite length proofs, >>>>>>>> assuming >>>>>>>> enough memory space. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Re: navigating trees: if you don't already know this, then I suggest >>>>>>> that you really, really should study hyperbolic rotations aka mobius >>>>>>> transformations on the poincare disk. They implement your example. I >>>>>>> recall seeing a demo of this at SIGGRAPH two or three decades ago. As >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> pan around on the hyperbolic disk, different parts of the graph get >>>>>>> magnified at the center. And, like an MC Escher print, the rest of the >>>>>>> graph remains compressed at the edges. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For scale-free networks, this doesn't work. And from what I can >>>>>>> tell, learning really does result in something close to scale-free >>>>>>> networks. What this means in practice is that there's one vertex with a >>>>>>> million edges coming off of it. There are two, with half-a-million >>>>>>> each. >>>>>>> Four, with a quarter-million each, and so on. So almost all vertexes >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> just a handful of edges connected to them, but as you move around, from >>>>>>> vertex to vertex, you bump into these monsters. And you can't really >>>>>>> draw >>>>>>> them: try drawing a vertex with a thousand edges on your 2Kx2K monitor: >>>>>>> most of those edges will be less than one pixel from each-other. It'll >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> just a big blob. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's important to "eat your own dog-food", as they say, or "smoke >>>>>>> your own dope": use your own code to solve actual, real-world problems. >>>>>>> This very quickly highlights where all that beautiful theory doesn't >>>>>>> quite >>>>>>> work out in practice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --linas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "opencog" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA34HBqa02JkW9-EVR5OrpSkOWEMGjZBOCPM2vKKpJR2%2B0A%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA34HBqa02JkW9-EVR5OrpSkOWEMGjZBOCPM2vKKpJR2%2B0A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "opencog" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAB5%3Dj6UgLR5xMP9WeE%2BWOkqBynGTr%2BNQTwsmUq9JrSuU1Sh1ZA%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAB5%3Dj6UgLR5xMP9WeE%2BWOkqBynGTr%2BNQTwsmUq9JrSuU1Sh1ZA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "opencog" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CACYTDBeOoqMRD20KFDYPGG1YfRqT0qW4wehOGtTKSqTb%3D6L2Jw%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CACYTDBeOoqMRD20KFDYPGG1YfRqT0qW4wehOGtTKSqTb%3D6L2Jw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "opencog" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/88dc6d00-07a3-4421-9cc0-9e5e1a8d0052n%40googlegroups.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/88dc6d00-07a3-4421-9cc0-9e5e1a8d0052n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAB5%3Dj6WYbjH6rpcgjd0SpR9h%3D5yvxu0MTYiuCLK9iFjau4B%3D8A%40mail.gmail.com.
