"A community is not a number of Facebook 'Likes', it is a group of people committed to fulfill given goals within a given ethical framework "
Thanks a lot for this , I've been discussing this point with people I know , framework We -I mean communities- do not have frameworks , every initiative and community start with very same start and almost I can see most of them just stop at some points there's no goals , just as Rayna said , vague ideas and this bring us back to the idea of The Cathedral and the Bazaar with very a small problem , we are still at same point , experience of the older folks and problems they faced has not been placed in a framework, so that new commers can learn and avoid reinventing the wheel On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Rayna <rayna...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Eslam and al, > > I was looking forward Mekkawy's details first, tbh. Actually, it is > important to really see what the status is before getting to talk how to > proceed.Let me explain further: > > We are (nearly) in 2014. Communities have been existing for 30 years, and > each and any of us has been through some community experience so far. At > least some of us here have been somehow involved in community building. > Yes, it is vain to reinvent the wheel, but I also believe it is vain to try > to copycat a governance model. Even though it shares characteristics with > others, each community is unique. I have voiced concerns and offerred help; > these were refused. I decided to not engage into flamewars (although this > is a preferred sport in FLOSS communities :) ) and to let go. People > evolve, communities self-regulate or die out. > > Bas it is time to move forward. I support Mekkawy's desire to open out > flat an endeavour that started to smell stuffy. A friendly warning though: > the desire to make things transparently is a respectable one, but requires > a lot of rigour and solid principles. The community has to agree upon basic > principles prior to engaging into anything as such. Eslam, here's your bit > of feedback from other communities: I have been sitting in various boards > and representing civil society orgs in diverse govtal commissions and > stuff. Officials don't like it when summaries of meetings are published on > the web and they have done their best to prevent wider communication. It is > just because they like it when stuff remains "between us", behind closed > doors. In such cases, it is necessary to have ethics and principles to > oppose as they are the community's decision. Which also means that in case > of incongruency, the community can and will call you out publicly. > > Here comes the tough part: how easy is it for everyone to leave aside > his/her ego, work -- even for free -- to promote and defend values, > recognize conflict of interests and step back to leave some room for other > people? Mekkawy's email tells exactly this: how tough it is to not just > bootstrap a community but also to foster and nurture its diversity and the > equality of its members. > > IMHO, what is needed here is to evaluate the status of initiatives and > commitments, then see what the aims and priorities of each of the people > keen to revive the community are. You cannot have a community around vague > ideas and alleged ideals. A community is not a number of Facebook 'Likes', > it is a group of people committed to fulfill given goals within a given > ethical framework. Thus far, I am not seeing anything such. So, before > saying who the bosses are, what we need is to know what the status is. > > My 2 cents, > Rayna > > > 2013/12/31 Eslam Farid <es...@vision-as.com> > >> السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته، >> شكرا جزيلا يا احمد على هذه المصارحة ، وأرجوا بداية أن يكون النقاش باللغة >> العربية إن أمكن،، او على الأقل سأكتب أنا بالعربية :) >> >> بداية يا أحمد، الطرح الذي قمت به يلمس بعض جوانب المشكلة بالفعل، ولكني >> أختلف معك في النتائج التي توصلت لها، >> واقتراحي بإيجاز شديد أنه إذا كنا نريد إدارة جمعية او مجتمع لدعم المصادر >> الحرة والمفتوحة المصدر في مصر، فعلينا أن نتبع إحدى القواعد الأساسية لمبادئ >> البرمجيات الحرة والمفتوحة المصدر، >> وهي ألا نعيد اختراع العجلة ! >> >> هناك بالفعل في أغلب دول العالم جمعيات او مجتمعات تسعى لنفس الأهداف التي >> نسعى لها، وأعتقد أنه علينا أن ننظر الى الأمثلة الناجحة منها ونحاول >> الاستفادة من خبراتهم وتجاربهم، >> وأولى هذه الأمور من وجهة نظري هو التعامل مع الجمعية على أنها ملك للمجتمع، >> وأن لها قواعد إدارية وتنظيمات تسمح بدرجة عالية من الشفافية وتنقل حقيقة >> الإحساس بأنها ملك للمجتمع، >> وهذا لا يعني أنك أو أحد المشاركين يعتبرها ملكية خاصة، ولكني أقصد بالكلام >> إحساس المجتمع بهذه النقطة، >> لو شعر أغلب أفراد المجتمع بالانتماء الى الجمعية وقدرته على المشاركة >> والانضمام بل وحتى القيادة لها بحسب القواعد والقوانين المنظمة للأمر فأحسب أن >> الأمور ستختلف كثيرا. >> >> خطوات العمل، >> أولا، أن نقوم بعمل حصر لبعض الأمثلة الموجودة في دول أخرى أو حتى تخاطب >> العالم، ونقتبس من أنظمتها الإدارية والتنظيمية ثم نسعى لنشر ذلك بطريقة >> تسويقية جيدة >> ثانيا، نقوم بعمل تصويت عام هنا يكون مفتوحا لبضعة أيام لاختيار آليات >> التنظيم والطرق الأكثر مناسبة لإدارة الجمعية بما يضمن احساس الإنتماء لدى >> المجتمع والشعور أنها ملكه وأنه يستطيع التاثير فيها. >> ثالثا، يتم تسجيل ما يتم الاتفاق عليه من لوائح وطرق إدارية وتنظيمية في >> الأوراق الرسمية للجمعية، >> رابعا، حملة تسويقية للجمعية في ثوبها الجديد والتركيز على أنها ملك للمجتمع >> وأن كل فرد من المجتمع مطالب بأن يشارك فيها ويضيف اليها. >> >> وجزاكم الله خيرا.. >> >> >> On Monday, 30 December 2013 21:35:44 UTC+3, Ahmed Mekkawy wrote: >> >>> @Rayna sure, I just have some commitments today, I will start writing >>> about that tomorrow. >>> >>> @soliman you aren't alone in this, I'm sure most of people on this >>> mailing list are. >>> >>> --- >>> Please execuse my brevity/typos. Sent from my mobile device. >>> --- >>> Ahmed Mekkawy >>> CEO | Founder >>> www.SpirulaSystems.com >>> On Dec 30, 2013 6:47 PM, "Ahmed Soliman" <asol...@cloud9ers.com> wrote: >>> >>>> +1 >>>> >>>> P.S: I really thought that OpenEgypt was dead! >>>> -- >>>> Ahmed Soliman >>>> Sent with Airmail >>>> >>>> On December 30, 2013 at 6:18:40 PM, Rayna (rayn...@gmail.com) wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Ahmed and al, >>>> >>>> Thank you for the email, Ahmed. Many of us have been there, very few >>>> have been brave enough to face the situation. >>>> >>>> Since it's going on the opening up way, why not sharing all these >>>> things you say have remained behind closed doors? :) >>>> >>>> Rayna >>>> >>>> >>>> 2013/12/30 Ahmed Mekkawy <ahmed....@spirulasystems.com> >>>> >>>>> Hi everybody, >>>>> >>>>> I was thinking about the evolving of the FOSS movement in Egypt and my >>>>> contribution to it. Not that I was thinking about how good I did, but >>>>> about >>>>> what wrong did I do. It then stroke me lots of mistakes that seemed small >>>>> then, but combining them showed me that I was actually deviating the >>>>> direction I should have followed. My only good thing that I was doing this >>>>> not for my personal benefit, but with the intention of speeding it up in >>>>> rough times in Egypt. Anyway this still doesn't seem to be a fair deal for >>>>> the idea, or for the FOSS communities and believers. In this email I will >>>>> try to show it up, for the sake of the things I violated. >>>>> >>>>> FOSS is about collaboration, transparency, and equal opportunity. >>>>> These are the real values that derives the four freedoms and the open >>>>> source definition. These are what ensures users freedom through many >>>>> implementation techniques in the models I am aware of, free software and >>>>> open source software. >>>>> >>>>> I will start when I became one of the three admins in EGLUG, the LUG >>>>> was pretty much dying then - and still is -. Though it had great legacy >>>>> and >>>>> even greater charter, but the effort needed for bringing it up was huge. I >>>>> was more or less the main player then, everyone else was either busy or >>>>> exhausted from the previous years. I was actually suggesting, modifying, >>>>> and executing the activities and sometimes even the discussions. True that >>>>> the LUG did some good activities at that time, but the outcome wasn't a >>>>> sustainable entity. Symptoms were showing pretty obvious back then: all >>>>> activities were in Alex were I lived, and I was in the heart of all of >>>>> them. Tried to create a second line LUGgers, but I failed. >>>>> >>>>> What did I miss there? That was my first mistake, losing >>>>> collaboration. That was something that the original creators of EGLUG >>>>> focused on, and I failed to sustain. This didn't show up much cause the >>>>> LUG >>>>> was dying anyway and I gave it a last minute life kiss, and it worked for >>>>> few years. So everyone was thankful and I didn't have enough criticism to >>>>> stop me from what I was doing. >>>>> >>>>> My next encounter was creating my private company, where I made >>>>> mistakes as well but let's keep this email focused about community work >>>>> for >>>>> now. >>>>> >>>>> Then it was the revolution, and the first meeting for me with the late >>>>> Dr. Ali Shaath and the immediate support by Dr. Naglaa Rizk. That was when >>>>> we decided to create the Egyptian Open Source Forum (EOSF) as suggested by >>>>> Ali. Again he was seeing clearly it's about collaboration. Then the name >>>>> changed, and it became OpenEgypt. At first few meetings, a governmental >>>>> entity tried to claim credit for unifying the FOSS community in a public >>>>> speech, two other NGOs tried to make OpenEgypt a subsidiary (I'm not >>>>> questioning their intentions though). And we were expecting to be >>>>> penetrated by all kind of entities soon, which partially happened later. >>>>> >>>>> After few meetings, it was clear that formulating a strategy in such >>>>> big circle and trying to involve everyone including the ones who don't >>>>> have >>>>> strategic vision is more of a waste of time. We needed a small circle to >>>>> draft, and the big crowd to feedback and evaluate. So it was decided to >>>>> have a small number that play both roles, to work on the strategy and be >>>>> the founders of the NGO. The idea of the NGO is to have an official entity >>>>> that can address the government, deal with other Egyptian or international >>>>> entities. It was chosen to be in the most opened legal form available, and >>>>> planned for the founders to lose control quickly: half of them to be >>>>> normal >>>>> members after 3 years, and the rest after another 3 years. This is the >>>>> quickest way in the Egyptian law. All of this planning was good IMHO, >>>>> especially that there was a call for founders on the public mailing list. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway the mistakes started from then, the criteria of founders >>>>> selection wasn't public, the names of the chosen founders were not >>>>> declared >>>>> in public. While the founders were trying to address ministries and other >>>>> entities for FOSS directions, the community which we claim to work for its >>>>> benefit didn't know anything about it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Another more major setback in transparency was forming MCIT's strategy >>>>> group. MCIT called for a group to draft a strategy towards FOSS. Though >>>>> it's logical that such choice is to be behind closed doors due to the >>>>> government's nature - though we didn't make a better job in choosing >>>>> OpenEgypt's founders -, but it wasn't logical not to tell the community >>>>> about the forming of such consultancy group. The community knew after the >>>>> protest of Micro$oft's deal with the Egyptian government. Moreover, we >>>>> succeeded in convincing MCIT to involve the community, but such >>>>> involvement >>>>> kept with few who we knew personally and the leaders of the FOSS groups. >>>>> Such failure in keeping effective horizontal flow of information was >>>>> setting back our potential, if not worse. >>>>> >>>>> Even when we chose someone from the community to play the role of full >>>>> time coordinator, we failed to communicate that clearly to the community >>>>> as >>>>> well. >>>>> >>>>> Though I was encouraging the community involvement in few situations, >>>>> but I didn't do enough effort to make sure it happens. >>>>> >>>>> Such problems doesn't usually stay as is, either it grows >>>>> exponentially or it fades away. Unfortunately the first one happened till >>>>> it reached within the founders team. Let me quote some phrases from emails >>>>> I got: >>>>> >>>>> - So I was out without even knowing? >>>>> >>>>> - I can't comment on something I haven't seen yet. >>>>> >>>>> - We'd better call this "Closed Egypt". >>>>> >>>>> - This isn't the professional - not even the ethical - way to do it. >>>>> >>>>> - Is OpenEgypt still alive? I thought it's dead already. >>>>> >>>>> I personally hold responsibility of the majority of this, as I'm the >>>>> only one from the early founders who is still heavily involved with the >>>>> FOSS communities. I should have known better how to do it the FOSS way. I >>>>> was thrilled to work on strategies and big scale that I almost forgot how >>>>> to do it right. >>>>> >>>>> The phrase that did actually hit me, was when I was talking with >>>>> another respectable founder about creating a non-technical group >>>>> (something >>>>> not relevant to OpenEgypt) and I told him we need someone visionary who >>>>> can >>>>> drive this, his reply was "I thought you'd want to do it the FOSS way, by >>>>> building bottom up". What hit me isn't the phrase, but it was that I >>>>> actually believed that it shouldn't fly that way. >>>>> >>>>> Why I'm saying this? Cause I believe that sharing such criticism >>>>> openly is a good thing to do. At least it can help someone not to make >>>>> these mistakes. I do see that I was violating the concept for the sake of >>>>> large scale implementation. This means that my compass is pointing the >>>>> wrong way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So here's the deal: I will continue working on what I'm currently on, >>>>> while committing to two things. First I will increase my verbosity level, >>>>> mainly on the official OpenEgypt communication methods. Second is that I >>>>> will try to delegate as much as I can to everyone, and what I can't >>>>> delegate I will involve others. I'm not sure I can do this in 100% of what >>>>> I do, but I'll try it to be the majority. What I'm asking in return is >>>>> that >>>>> you get involved, feedback me, criticize me, call me publicly to step >>>>> back. >>>>> I will be thankful for all that even if I don't show it. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone got feedback or suggestion, please tell me. If not just wish >>>>> me luck and discard this email. >>>>> >>>>> Sorry for the extra long email. >>>>> ---- >>>>> Ahmed Mekkawy >>>>> CTO | Founder >>>>> Spirula Systems >>>>> www.spirulasystems.com >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to openegypt+...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "Change l'ordre du monde plutôt que tes désirs." >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to openegypt+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to openegypt+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "OpenEgypt" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to openegypt+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > > -- > "Change l'ordre du monde plutôt que tes désirs." > > http://de.linkedin.com/in/raynas > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "OpenEgypt" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to openegypt+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Ahmed M. Araby -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to openegypt+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
