On 14/11/2017 14:50, Bert Verhees wrote:
I think we are heading an era where it can be impossible to tell where from and/or when data are received /created and which event created the data or made the data cause to interchange when the data do not tell us themselves on an accountable way. For that we need an open notary-system which does not rely on third parties (which would make it to expensive).

There are not many kinds of personal data which will be interchanged so much or are created in chains of events (context) as medical data.

I see that is quite a challenge to arrange such a system, but we will need it to guarantee professional and medical safety and also privacy. Maybe I am wrong, but I think blockchain may be a way to help us with that.

I have not seen in this discussion many people acknowledging these near future problems which can effect clinicians (in accountability) and patients (in health-safety).

How about a clinician taking a fatal decision on base of an event described on another system and that other system changed its contents afterwards?

well if the physician included in his/her notes a mention of the original event, or better, it was included in a FEEDER_AUDIT, the versioning in the openEHR system will make sure there is medico-legal protection. It is very unlikely that a physician would record a decision (e.g. to prescribe some drug) without mentioning why.

So unless you are talking about the openEHR system being actively hacked, I don't think this is a real use case. If we are talking about the openEHR versioning being hacked, then a) they had to hack RAID 10 storage, DB persistence mirroring, daily backups, b) the data centre has singificant security, c) some security analysis will have been made in advance (it will, won't it?!), and depending on the perceived threat, there may be e.g. hashing + notary, or signed hashes + notary, which requires the hackers to be of a superior variety.

It's a fair bit of work to invisibly hack a properly implemented versioned DB implementation within a secure facility, which is what is needed for a medico-legal claim based on data to fail.

How about a patient who discovers its employer has knowledge of private medical data? People often think about psychiatric circumstances, but it can be other things in this time of revival of religions, f.e. a woman who hides the fact she has had an abortion and is now teaching on a christian school.

ok, now that's privacy, so we are talking data theft, not integrity or non-repudiation of authorship.


Also interesting in this discussion is how to handle deletion of medical data (the patients right to be forgotten). Can it be that data refer to data on other systems, or may they only refer to data on the same system, copies of data from other systems?
Do these copies need some accountable reference to where they come from?

these are I agree, important questions, and we've tried to cover some of it with openEHR e.g. via FEEDER_AUDIT <http://www.openehr.org/releases/RM/latest/docs/common/common.html#_feeder_system_audit>, URI datatype, and more recently some thinking in a new REPORT type <https://openehr.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/spec/pages/92358988/Reports> being considered for the RM (I've added a note to this to cover the requirement to safely refer to / ?copy content from external systems).

We need to consider these kind of reference questions more carefully and provide more comprehensive solutions for sure.

- thomas

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Thomas Beale
Principal, Ars Semantica <http://www.arssemantica.com>
Consultant, ABD Team, Intermountain Healthcare <https://intermountainhealthcare.org/> Management Board, Specifications Program Lead, openEHR Foundation <http://www.openehr.org> Chartered IT Professional Fellow, BCS, British Computer Society <http://www.bcs.org/category/6044> Health IT blog <http://wolandscat.net/> | Culture blog <http://wolandsothercat.net/>
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