John: IMHO: The only significant feature that OpenID 2.0 and OpenID Connect 
have in common is the word "OpenID"

For me, user-centric is less about empowering the user, and much more about how 
we can scale past one IdP.

-- Dick

On 2011-07-20, at 4:22 PM, John Kemp wrote:

> On Jul 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
>> One of the bad habits of that period was the excessive generation of jargon. 
>> By the end I think that everyone was thoroughly confused. I would ditch the 
>> term entirely and instead use "user centric communication pattern", it takes 
>> more characters but it is apparent to everyone that we are talking about the 
>> same thing.
>> 
>> 
>> The term User Focused is not taken as far as I know. That is what I am 
>> arguing for. A User Focused approach is highly likely to have a user centric 
>> communication pattern.
> 
> With all due respect, I would personally not wish to restart the jargon wars, 
> and I think we're moving far away from the original point of this thread by 
> discussing the meaning of "user-centric". 
> 
> Personally I was just trying to discover what is different about BrowserID 
> when compared to OpenID (Connect *or* 2.0). I can't see very much different 
> really in how we expect users to play a role in the protocol. I do think its 
> good that the verification of a user's email address actually being used by 
> the user is made possible by the properties of the identifier, but I can't 
> see much else that commends BrowserID over OpenID, and some people may even 
> think it a bad thing that the user identifier has properties other than that 
> of being an identifier (ie. it can be used to send email to the user) - and I 
> think that's a valid concern which may outweigh the convenience of easy 
> verification of the link from the identifier to the user. 
> 
> All these technologies *might* properly respect the wishes of the user if 
> implemented that way (and there may even be multiple ways to do that). Why 
> should they not be implemented that way? It's not a technical problem, as far 
> as I can tell. 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> - John
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Dick Hardt <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Phillip
>> 
>> The term was defined and used in literature and by analysts 6 or 7 years ago.
>> 
>> Many assumed it meant the user was in control or the focus -- I find that 
>> definition misleading and hides the significant scale advantages of the 
>> architecture. I just realized that my old blog is offline, where I had 
>> defined the term in the past. Hmmm, perhaps time to pull that off the shelf 
>> and polish it up again.
>> 
>> -- Dick
>> 
>> On 2011-07-20, at 12:24 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>> 
>>> I think we should make the term user centric mean what it appears to mean - 
>>> make the user the focus of the design.
>>> 
>>> One of the ways in which OpenID lost its way was the obsession with making 
>>> it easy for bloggers to deploy and even weirder for people to be able to 
>>> set up Idps. Both of these came across as much higher priorities in the 
>>> design than the user experience.
>>> 
>>> It should not be unnecessarily hard for bloggers to add support for an 
>>> Identity protocol, but that should not be a higher goal than the user and 
>>> in particular support for legacy versions of platform infrastructure seems 
>>> like it should be a non-issue.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One consequence of this approach is that you want to make sure that the 
>>> user is able to control all the flows of information that affect them and 
>>> that when things break the user should know where and why. That in turn 
>>> tends towards a protocol architecture where the user is in the hub of all 
>>> the protocol message flows but I would see that as a (minor) technical 
>>> consequence of the deeper philosophical approach.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On the account identifier approach, I stand by the assertion that the user 
>>> should recognize their account by means of an identifier of the form 
>>> [email protected] where idp-service.com is the DNS name of the 
>>> service provider.
>>> 
>>> Now it may be useful to bind claims referring to other accounts with that 
>>> form, but that is a separate matter.
>>> 
>>> When the user types in something into a client to configure their service, 
>>> the string should be [email protected].
>>> 
>>> Then when they go to the idp-service.com site to configure their service 
>>> they might bind their gmail and yahoo accounts to it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One other consequence of being user-centric is that it allows for a two 
>>> point deployment model. I am currently working on an account management 
>>> protocol that allows me to manage all my usernames and passwords for all of 
>>> my sites from any browser I have authorized to have access. 
>>> 
>>> In this scheme I don't care whether the Huffington Post supports my 
>>> protocol or not. They don't get a choice. I am storing my username and 
>>> password for the huffpost in my chosen cloud because that is a very low 
>>> value data resource to me and I could not give a flying monkey if it is 
>>> compromised. I just don't care. 
>>> 
>>> Now my Fidelity account is another matter. There I care quite a lot. I am 
>>> not going to put a raw password in there but I might allow it to be used as 
>>> an additional factor.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So in this scheme I will occasionally need to bind a client running on a 
>>> new machine to the service. And this is one of the few times that I need to 
>>> expose that account identifier. I give the identifier to the client, 
>>> authorize the binding using my second factor confirmation and the client is 
>>> then bound by a public keypair that is unique to that device and cannot be 
>>> exported.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Website: http://hallambaker.com/
>> 
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> 

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