I thought those JVM's were considered to be steps in progression toward production JVM's? Though the "push" was toward full utility, I thought the wagon train would circle back around to do "optimization passes" and so forth? Remember we started from absolutely nothing and a question as to its possibility? Now we know conclusively that it's possible - and I thought the work could be extended upon?
If Oracle is to be the true "steward" of Java, I think they need to do more than what I call "Gesturing". If one intends to end hunger in Africa, you get on a plane and go there and physically work on the problem until it's solved, not put your (albeit grand "gesture") of 1 million dollars in the collection plate and forget about it. Of course, it's easy for people like me to sit back and judge - but I didn't go and purchase Sun and announce to the world my stewardship of one of the most important technologies in existence. Either do it all the way or stay the &*&*&^ out of the way - as far as I'm concerned. Of course this is not to condemn the heroic efforts of people here who live and breathe their contribution to Java. I just think a partial commitment (no matter how grand), is in the end detrimental. Sorry... On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 1:41 AM, Tobias Bley <t...@ultramixer.com> wrote: > Hello to the community, > > I read the last discussion about „JavaFX native look and feel“ and have to > get out of my mind the following: > > In my opinion the MAIN point is not „how to bring the native look and feel > to iOS/Android“, the real MAIN issue is: we need a professional JVM(!) > which works performant and reliable on iOS, Android and Windows 8! Only if > we have such a JVM, developers and companies are motivated to develop real > commercial apps with JavaFX and contribute stuff back to OpenJFX! > > RoboVM is a good „prototype“. Niklas is currently one of the most > important people for the JavaFX community. He and his company has build the > first and one and only real solution to deploy Java and JavaFX code to the > iOS platform! His work is really great! But: He is only one(!) person! This > kind of complex task I would expect from big companies like Oracle, IBM, > SAP or Twitter. But from this direction we don’t hear anything about it. > > It is not enough that people like Niklas (Trillian AB) or Matthias and me > (UltraMixer) are trying to bring JavaFX to iOS and Android. It’s all > experimental stuff! Yes, currently we can start JavaFX apps on a real > iPhone and iPad. And yes, we have managed to start JavaFX on a real Android > device using the Dalvik VM. BUT: this is not a long term solution and only > experimental! RoboVM on iOS uses the android class library instead of the > real Java = OpenJDK. Our „JavaFX on Android“ solution uses Google Dalvik VM > and the Android class library as well! So both solutions use the real Java > platform (=OpenJDK)! > > In my opinion there are only two solutions: 1) Oracle releases their JVM > for iOS and Android. 2) The „community“ starts a new company who develops a > professional, performant and reliable solution for „JavaFX on iOS and > Android“ which contains of a JVM and the 6 degrees Felix described in his > blog post, mainly native integration (API) and look and feel (skins, native > controls). > > Cheers, > Tobi > > > > Am 23.10.2013 um 22:30 schrieb Richard Bair <richard.b...@oracle.com>: > > > Yes, definitely. > > > >> On Oct 23, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Scott Palmer <swpal...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> This is starting to sound like it may also partially address the issue > in the desktop space of supplying a native surface (the heavyweight) to > draw in that is part of the scene graph. It may not be the ideal solution, > but could be useful for specific use cases, like a video preview overlay. > Would that make any sense? > >> > >> > >> Scott > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Richard Bair <richard.b...@oracle.com> > wrote: > >>> To do this we need to either solve the auto-layer problem in the NG > nodes / Glass / Quantum, or we need to ask the app developer to use > SubScene and put all the native stuff in a single SubScene, and all > lightweight content above and below it. For the short term, we could use > the SubScene approach ("Just be careful and don't draw lightweight on top > of heavyweights unless you layer an entire sub scene above them") which is > probably a perfectly workable solution in the short term. Then somebody > just needs to write a set of skins (which can be done in an external > project) that map various UI controls directly to native controls. This > approach would allow people to have completely native controls while using > the FX API, or they can use the lightweight controls (with Modena or with > an iOS 7 skin or iOS 6 skin etc). > >>> > >>> I'm thinking about how to implement the auto-layer, and I'm not sure > of the best approach. It seems like you need to hook into the sync-time to > determine which nodes can be batched into the same layer, reusing previous > layers where possible. If there is a way to then setup the NG peer side so > that it thinks it was setup in sub scenes etc, although it really wasn't, > then that would leave prism out of the problem (which makes this an easier > thing to pull off). hmmm. SubScene itself has a peer. So what I'm thinking > is, suppose I have a package: > >>> > >>> com.sun.javafx.ext.ios.controls > >>> > >>> and in this package you have all the skins. There is also someplace in > here a map of skin -> sub scene peer, indicating which of the nodes is in > which sub scene peer ("layer"). Then when the sync takes place, a skin node > looks back at siblings etc to determine if it can be placed in the same > layer as something before it. If so, then it sets itself as a child on the > sub scene as needed. If not, then it creates a new sub scene peer and sets > itself on there and then carry on. So then it isn't sync'd to the "real" > scene but instead to one of these fake sub scenes that was created. > >>> > >>> The idea can be refined, but actually I think this approach might be > workable for doing auto-layering. > >>> > >>> Richard > >>> > >>> On Oct 22, 2013, at 4:10 PM, Felix Bembrick <felix.bembr...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Yes, having viable implementations of both options would be ideal. > >>>> > >>>> How long till Oracle and/or the community gets to that point? ;-) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 23 October 2013 10:06, Stephen F Northover > >>>> <steve.x.northo...@oracle.com>wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Rather than arguing this point, the correct answer is to provide > both and > >>>>> let the application developer choose. > >>>>> > >>>>> Do you guys know how old this argument is? Hint: It predates Java. > >>>>> > >>>>> Steve > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 2013-10-22 6:17 PM, Pedro Duque Vieira wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Even the most fab skins or CSS is not going to get us away from the > need > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> integrate JavaFX controls with true native controls. As has been > pointed > >>>>>>> out, there are some native controls on both iOS and Android for > which > >>>>>>> there > >>>>>>> is no JavaFX equivalent and this will always be the case. Even if > >>>>>>> someone > >>>>>>> were to develop near identical lightweight controls in JavaFX, > they would > >>>>>>> need to behave slightly differently on iOS than they do on Android > and > >>>>>>> vice > >>>>>>> versa. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I don't think this is exactly this straight forward. Ideally you > would > >>>>>> want > >>>>>> to have this kind of native behavior on every platform. But having > this > >>>>>> native behavior involves having a different version of your app for > each > >>>>>> OS > >>>>>> you want to deploy in, which might not be what the developers want. > >>>>>> Remember JavaFX is a cross platform development kit and the major > reason a > >>>>>> developer would choose JavaFX over doing native mobile development > is that > >>>>>> his app can run on a variety of mobile platforms: windows 8, ipad, > >>>>>> android, > >>>>>> iPhone, etc with the same code base and *MOST* importantly with > much less > >>>>>> development time than building an app for each platform. > >>>>>> For the sake of development time an app that doesn't go against any > of the > >>>>>> different platforms UX but that has the least common denominator so > that > >>>>>> each user in each different platform understands the UI might be a > better > >>>>>> solution for the sake of development time. One such example is the > back > >>>>>> button that appears when you drill down a list on an ios app but > doesn't > >>>>>> appear in an android app because every android phone as a physical > back > >>>>>> button. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I do agree with you that there are some places where a native > looking > >>>>>> control is ideal and doesn't involve any extra effort from the > developer > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> customize it for the given platform like for instance comboboxs > where a > >>>>>> kind of wheel appears where the user can choose an option, or input > >>>>>> controls where the native keyboard pops up. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks, best regards, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > >