Interesting idea about moving just the openjfx-discuss list to GitHub
discussions, although even that will run into some resistance. Enabling
any GitHub feature as part of the openjdk organization needs buy-in from
the the larger openjdk community, and probably from the OpenJDK Project
Lead.
-- Kevin
On 8/20/2021 7:30 AM, Johan Vos wrote:
Hi,
I see the value of Github Discussions, but I also see the value of the
mailinglists we are currently using. We have to realise though that this
particular list is about the *development* of OpenJFX, not about *using*
OpenJFX. Therefore, I believe it is ok to be more formal here, and a number
of things that make Github discussions more light-weight might imho
decrease productivity.
But on the other hand, I also agree that the entry level is very high for
new developers. Years ago, I advocated for a separate "openjfx-discuss"
mailinglist where we would have more informal discussions and brainstorms.
We have that list but it's not frequently used. I was probably wrong in
suggesting this, as the style and formalism of the mailinglists does not
match with discussions amongst developers.
The idea of what I had for an "openjfx-discuss" mailinglist might work
better on Github Discussions. It would be a low-level entry point where new
ideas can be tossed. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the
subscribe page (I love it when technology from the eighties is still
working :) ) but realistically, yes, it might turn away developers who
might have great ideas and time.
In short: I'm +1 on keeping openjfx-dev to the current mailinglist, but I
think it could be good if we move openjfx-discuss to a github discussion.
- Johan
On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:29 AM Sebastian Stenzel <
sebastian.sten...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am among the younger people here on the mailing lists (at least I think
so) and I can very much relate to what Michael suggests. So here is my
personal answer to the _why_ question:
Mailing lists create an enormous barrier to external devs like myself who
are willing to contribute:
* Signing up to a means of the 80s feels just strange
* Signing up to _any_ additional tool is deterring (same holds true for
JBS), especially when you're used to low-threshold contributions to other
projects can be
* Therefore, signing up feels like a liability that you may not want to
commit to, if you merely want to express your support for a single comment
* It can be hard to find the correct mailing list for the topic you want
to discuss
* You'll
* either receive digests and miss a topic you're interested in
* or dozens of additional mails each day, alienating people who just
want to follow specific discussions
* No proper formatting
* No proper linking to code, issues, PRs, ...
* Hard to track diverging discussions
* Very hard to search - I basically need to use Google and restrict the
search to some mail archive
* Linking to different topics means you need to either quote the whole
thing or link to an archive
On the other hand I see one important argument against GitHub Discussions:
We have no control over how Discussions will change in the future. Even if
they seem suitable today, we can't tell if it may be necessary to switch to
yet another tool in 5 years. Each time you switch, you strip connections to
discussions that took place on the previous platform. Switching tools
always comes with a commitment to it and bears this risk.
That said, I agree that this may not be something for OpenJFX to decide
for its own. Maybe this discussion belongs on the skara mailing list (did I
mention that it's hard to find the right mailing list, a topic belongs to?)
Furthermore, changing a process is never easy and will scare people used to
the status quo, especially when they've grown familiar with the old process
over decades. I've seen this in companies many times. If there is no
pressure to change, better tooling is not a strong enough argument to
change processes.
On 20. Aug 2021, at 03:39, openjfx-dev-requ...@openjdk.java.net wrote:
From: Philip Race <philip.r...@oracle.com <mailto:philip.r...@oracle.com
Subject: Re: Moving discussions to GitHub?
Date: 20. August 2021 at 03:39:04 CEST
To: Michael Strauß <michaelstr...@gmail.com <mailto:
michaelstr...@gmail.com>>, "openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net <mailto:
openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net> List" <openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net <mailto:
openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net>>
I am not sure that openjfx as an openjdk sponsored project can
unilaterally decide this.
Nor sure that it makes sense either to be different.
And I've not felt the same disconnection you cite or have any idea why
this would be better or even match how we work.
-phil.
On 8/19/21 5:50 PM, Michael Strauß wrote:
With the GitHub Discussions feature now out of beta*, I'd like to
start a conversation on whether it could be a good idea for the
OpenJFX project to embrace it as the primary place to discuss and
interact with the broader community.
While I understand that mailing lists have a long tradition with
OpenJDK projects, I feel that they are not a great tool for building
and maintaining a community. It's pretty hard to search archived mails
and find relevant information or past discussions. Sure, you can do
it, but it's not very inviting and accessible.
It also seems to me that the mailing list is very disconnected from
the people actually using OpenJFX. Since most people already are on
GitHub, and most people interested in OpenJFX will find its GitHub
repository, it would also seem to be the most logical place to invite
people into the community and join our discussions.
After all, growing and maintaining a community is fundamental for
every open-source project to remain relevant.
* https://github.blog/2021-08-17-github-discussions-out-of-beta <
https://github.blog/2021-08-17-github-discussions-out-of-beta>
