On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Frank Nichols <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, it appears again that the discussion boils down to should a change > be made to alpha code that will fix a problem which has already cost people > real tome and money, vs not fixing it because some people may have to > adjust scripts to accommodate getting real/accurate data. > > Seriously? > > Sent from my iPad Air 2 > > On Apr 25, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL (US) < > [email protected]> wrote: > > I have heard this point brought up a few times and we concur. As it > turns out, the statistics we collected during the joint ARL/Intel DSG > events (all 6 of them) are now in question. We published results from > those events in multiple conferences. Further, I am devoting a significant > amount of engineering labor hours to a team that currently includes 6 > computer scientists, two of which have PhD's. The realization that we had > been testing and sampling the open simulator for physics and scalability on > bogus simulator data was shocking. > > > > Folks, you may not realize this but knowingly propagating the erroneous > code is intellectually dishonest and has already wasted precious research > funding. That we are even debating whether or not to fix the simulator > reporting mechanisms is disturbing. > > > > What we should be debating is "how". The MOSES project has provided a > solution that works for us and we need your knowledgeable feedback as core > code experts to know if our solution is feasible for the community. > > > Douglas Maxwell, MSME > Science and Technology Manager > Virtual World Strategic Applications > U.S. Army Research Lab > Human Research & Engineering Directorate > Simulation & Training Technology Center > (c) (407) 242-0209 <%28407%29%20242-0209> > ------------------------------ > *From:* [email protected] [ > [email protected]] on behalf of Diva Canto [ > [email protected]] > *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2015 2:05 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted (UNCLASSIFIED) > > I would like to hear from people who have either monitoring tools or > bots that rely on the incorrect physics FPS. If these people exist, let's > hear what pain it would cause them to correct the number. Otherwise, I > don't see any reason to continue to report an incorrect number, and I see > many reasons for fixing it: several PhD students have now either wasted a > lot of their time or even made wrong data analysis because of this. > > > On 4/24/2015 9:08 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni wrote: > > It is more than just bots that worry me, many people have written custom > monitoring tools to monitor region performance to automatically restart > regions, not to mention script that could potentially rely on osGetRegionStats > > http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OsGetRegionStats > <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> we could be > potentially breaking all of this content if we are talking about long term > leaving the statistics at these lower numbers, if we are talking about > eventually having them resume to the normal levels etc.. that is something > else, and if that is the case I would suggest we start a new branch for > that work that would eventually merge into master once the work was > complete. Like i said I am not against doing this work, but not at the > expense of causing mass chaos amongst important users and testers of this > software, how can we say we are improving the software if we are rushing > into breaking stuff people may be very reliant on. > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 12:01 AM, Diva Canto <[email protected] > <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote: > >> I'm +1 on the changes. I find it very unsettling to be shown a physics >> fps that is incorrect, and some of my students have been very confused >> about it in the past. I don't think the changes will affect bots in any >> significant way, but if someone can point me to a bot that will be >> affected, I would like to know. >> >> >> On 4/24/2015 6:23 PM, Dahlia Trimble wrote: >> >> I like the idea of a multiplier for physics fps, however I see no need >> for altering the value. If a reported number is linearly scaled, then any >> change in that number is also scaled proportionally. For example, if I have >> 55 fps reported for a real fps of 11 due to a scale factor of 5, all I need >> to do is divide by 5 to get the 11 back. If the 55 decreases by 10%, the 11 >> will also decrease by 10%. It really shouldn't matter as either value will >> provide the same indication of change in performance. >> >> As far as SL compatibility goes, I usually see a physics fps of 45 for a >> well running region in SL, not 55. In that case if such compatibility was >> desired, the factor would be 45/11 or approximately 4.1 rather than 5. >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni < >> [email protected] >> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote: >> >>> Also sounds like a reasonable solution as well, If the goal is to >>> improve performance in general I am not sure it matters what is actually >>> reported to the viewer , since i would assume any kind of real analysis >>> would be done on the back end and not via the viewer #'s >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Mike Chase < >>> [email protected] >>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote: >>> >>>> Why not just introduce a new counter and function to fetch the value. >>>> The current one can always return the SL adjusted value. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On 04/24/2015 08:59 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni wrote: >>>> >>>> What do you think about making the multiplier a modifiable variable in >>>> OpenSim.ini? This will allow anyone who wants to improve performance and >>>> use the stock #'s and in the meantime people can continue to use the code >>>> in a meaningful way without having to rewrite scripts and monitoring tools >>>> to continue testing other code that may be pushed into core, especially if >>>> the end goal is to get statistics to report back at the original numbers? >>>> I am mostly just trying to understand the end goal myself. If that is not >>>> possible I would suggest this work be moved into a development branch until >>>> we can get statistics back to the normal numbers again? Otherwise we are >>>> talking about locking the code down to all other development until this >>>> process is complete, and no one has discussed any kind of time frame for >>>> this level of changes to complete, I would hate to put a complete halt to >>>> development in order for this to happen. I am not against doing what you >>>> suggest, I just want to make sure we do it in the most efficient way >>>> possible. Would be good to hear what others in the core development have >>>> to say, hopefully Justin and Diva and Melanie, Misterblue, BlueWall, you >>>> guys can chime in here as well, as I am only one person here and for the >>>> record just voicing my own concerns, I am far from the final say on any of >>>> this stuff. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL (US) < >>>> [email protected] >>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Folks, before we can make any meaningful progress in performance >>>>> enhancements to the open simulator we have to be able to rely on the >>>>> simulator statistics. Currently they are (purposefully) misreported to >>>>> make the simulator look like it is performing better than it really is. >>>>> This is not acceptable if we are to dig in and begin to assist. >>>>> >>>>> Douglas Maxwell, MSME >>>>> Science and Technology Manager >>>>> Virtual World Strategic Applications >>>>> U.S. Army Research Lab >>>>> Human Research & Engineering Directorate >>>>> Simulation & Training Technology Center >>>>> (c) (407) 242-0209 >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> [ >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] on behalf of >>>>> Melanie [[email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 5:56 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted (UNCLASSIFIED) >>>>> >>>>> It is also my opinion that this change isn't fit for core. If and >>>>> when additional stats, like "real fps" and "physics engine fps" can >>>>> be shown in the viewer, then that would be good but the viewer stats >>>>> window should continue to show the fudged figures indefinitely. This >>>>> is because people don't only use scripts but also bots to do >>>>> monitoring and bots receive the same data the viewer receives. >>>>> >>>>> - Melanie >>>>> >>>>> On 24/04/2015 23:42, Michael Emory Cerquoni wrote: >>>>> > ok so just so I understand we should now see this actually just >>>>> display >>>>> > 11fps? Personally I think this is a bad idea, alot of people may be >>>>> using >>>>> > monitoring apps and scripts that look for low fps and restart the >>>>> region, >>>>> > we would basically be forcing everyone to rewrite a lot of code to >>>>> > accommodate a singular purpose? Not quite sure how this improves the >>>>> > project as a whole. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni < >>>>> > [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> ok I will continue testing this for now, we should try to resolve >>>>> the >>>>> >> white space issues before it hits core, we can worry about that >>>>> later >>>>> >> though. I hope others can start testing this patch as well we need >>>>> to >>>>> >> really make sure this does not break any scripts or monitoring apps >>>>> before >>>>> >> this changes the core code, so anyone who has the time please do >>>>> test this >>>>> >> and let us know if you notice anything change or break, thanks! >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Maxwell, Douglas CIV USARMY ARL >>>>> (US) < >>>>> >> [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>>> >>> Caveats: NONE >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> What you saw were just warnings about white spaces. The patch >>>>> should >>>>> >>> still >>>>> >>> apply and work. We follows the open simulator patch creation >>>>> guidance >>>>> >>> explicitly, if you guys have updated instructions for how you want >>>>> this >>>>> >>> done - >>>>> >>> let us know. Otherwise, you can ignore the warnings. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> v/r -douglas >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Douglas Maxwell, MSME >>>>> >>> Science and Technology Manager >>>>> >>> Virtual World Strategic Applications >>>>> >>> U.S. Army Research Lab >>>>> >>> Simulation & Training Technology Center (STTC) >>>>> >>> (c) (407) 242-0209 >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>> From: [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> >>> [mailto:[email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On Behalf Of >>>>> Michael Emory >>>>> >>> Cerquoni >>>>> >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 2:38 PM >>>>> >>> To: [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] MOSES patch submitted >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> please check the mantis, i had some trouble applying patch for >>>>> testing, >>>>> >>> thanks >>>>> >>> guys! >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Michael Heilmann < >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> >>>>> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Opensim Devs >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Just an FYI, mantis bug #7540 is the first code submission >>>>> from >>>>> >>> project >>>>> >>> MOSES. Thanks. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> Michael Heilmann >>>>> >>> Research Associate >>>>> >>> Institute for Simulation and Training >>>>> >>> University of Central Florida >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> >>> [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> >>> >>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> >>> <blockedhttp:// >>>>> opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Michael Emory Cerquoni >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >>>>> >>> Caveats: NONE >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> >>> [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> >>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Michael Emory Cerquoni >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> > [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> > http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Opensim-dev mailing [email protected] >>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Michael Emory Cerquoni >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Opensim-dev mailing [email protected] >> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Opensim-dev mailing list >> [email protected] >> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >> <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> >> >> > > > -- > Michael Emory Cerquoni > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing [email protected] > <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > <https://web-mont05.mail.mil/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > [email protected] > http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > [email protected] > http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > -- Michael Emory Cerquoni
_______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list [email protected] http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
